Interested in a PJ Bass Sparked

[khutch]

Really? I've never actually looked into it. I feel like they're a P bass + because they have the precision pickup.. and then the jazz as well. Couldn't you just roll off the jazz pickup and basically have a P bass? But even so, there was no denying that Fender PJ sounded incredible. Perhaps it did not sound like either a P or a Jazz, and it simply sounded like an individual PJ. A category of tone to its own

Bongolation is a P bass purist. If you are too then you should listen to him. Otherwise it is safe to ignore him or wait until he develops a more nuanced stance to listen to him. P/J basses are made in a variety of forms. Out of the box a few do an excellent P bass impression, most do not. Many could be modified to do an excellent P bass impression, probably most cannot. But you are doing what you should be doing when you buy a bass: you are listening to its tone and deciding that you like it. What more could you want?

The P/J bass is evidently quite popular. Take a good look at the Fender lineup and you will see that there are many of them. A lot of other people make them too. If you want a P/J that can sound like a P bass then you need one that puts the P pickup in the right spot. A few do but most do not so they can never get the P bass sound exactly. Most Fender Jazz and Jaguar bodied P/J basses have it slightly off. Most Fender (but not necessarily other brand) P bodied basses have it in the right spot. The Fender Reggie Hamilton, my favorite bass, has it very, very close to the right spot and it uses an actual P bass pickup. The pickup loading is a bit off because of the blend pot but on the whole it cops an excellent P bass tone. Reggie Hamilton uses it in P bass mode for recording work so evidently a lot of producers (who are noted P bass tone fanatics) agree that it can cop a P bass tone. Of course if you were to assemble 20 actual P basses from over the years and compare them to each other you would find a lot of differences in tone. Which P bass is it that the P bass purists want to sound like, eh???

In terms of sounding like a Jazz, well, you would need two Jazz pickups to do that and again which J bass is it that you want to sound like? Fender has used at least two different pickup spacings on their Jazz basses and who knows what the copycats use? So yeah, it is best to think of the P/J as its own beast, keeping in mind that if it is done right or modified suitably it can cop the "P bass sound". Whatever that is....

 

[Bongolation]

Really? I've never actually looked into it. I feel like they're a P bass + because they have the precision pickup.. and then the jazz as well. Couldn't you just roll off the jazz pickup and basically have a P bass?

Not if you've mucked-up the P pickup by winding it to more closely match output to the J, which you've also mucked-up by winding it to more closely match the P...and then mucked it up even worse by wiring the mess passive V/V/T, which is an engineering abortion that puts the pickups in electronic conflict with each other.

But even so, there was no denying that Fender PJ sounded incredible. Perhaps it did not sound like either a P or a Jazz, and it simply sounded like an individual PJ. A category of tone to its own

I believe you were referring to an active P/J, unless I've lost the plot here.

Actives in this instance are an entirely different proposition.

But as far as passives go, you've stumbled into it. They often have unique and very interesting sounds with everything dimed, but they're one-trick ponies with none of the versatility the concept was intended to have. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that he really thought the P sound or the J sound on a passive P/J was that authentically great alone compared to the real things.

If you go passive P/J with the intention of having a real P plus a real J, you need to go with the best pure Precision and pure Jazz pickups and then run them switched, like on the pricey Fender Tony Franklin.

 

[Bongolation]

Bongolation is a P bass purist. If you are too then you should listen to him. Otherwise it is safe to ignore him or wait until he develops a more nuanced stance to listen to him.

That's actually not an accurate assessment.

I'm not a Precision purist. I do believe, with a more substantive case than anyone here has the patience to listen to or objective background to understand, that in the traditional role of bass instrumentation in ensemble music the Precision is all that's needed or particularly desirable, and departures from it have led for better or worse into an essentially different instrument with a musically different role, more guitar than bass. And you don't want to hear about that, either.

That has little to do with my beef against the passive V/V/T P+J, which is mainly about it being what I call a "pothead concept," a gristlehead's bright idea based in technical ignorance of the relevant engineering and having too much weed and time on his hands.

And if you don't understand the engineering, don't try to make something more complex, because it's not going to work out in any predictably favorable way. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] rarely do what they were envisioned as doing and frequently work so atrociously that even the typical gristlehead user assumes that they must be busted, miswired or made with the wrong parts.

If all the geeks think that's reactionary, I'd point out that even today, the large majority of guitars and basses used in real recording are still a handful of designs fifty or sixty years old and relatively unchanged.

If you're going to be "innovative," put down the reefer and go into digital engineering where you can actually make a difference and stop trying to wreck iconic instrument designs that already work well enough in the real world. All the go-faster crap has come and gone and the producer still wants to see a basic Precision for the first-track bass line.

 

[electracoyote]

I own 2 Precision special deluxes (MIM) 3 band active with a Jazz neck they can be had for about $400 used.

This. ^

Also, OP may be a fan of the active electronics in that model. Though, like Bongolation, I do not find the tones of a passive P/J useful, I do find the active electronics in the Deluxe turns it into a whole different animal.

 

[bkbirge]

Yes a PJ can sound exactly like a P. And if all you care about from the J is the bridge burp then you can get a PJ to sound exactly like that too. The PJ's I have started life as gen-yooo-whine P basses though so maybe I've got the magic fairy dust to make mine work. But yes it is possible. If you are worried about 99.9999999% authentic tone (whatever that means) then just find a used P where someone routed for a J in the bridge, rather than buying a production PJ. The plus side of that is the purist P cork sniffers hate those mods so you'll get it cheaper usually.

Also, big +1 to the Yammies, great basses.

 

[khutch]

Bongolation is a P bass purist. If you are too then you should listen to him. Otherwise it is safe to ignore him or wait until he develops a more nuanced stance to listen to him. P/J basses are made in a variety of forms.

That's actually not an accurate assessment.

I'm not a Precision purist. I do believe, with a more substantive case than anyone here has the patience to listen to or objective background to understand, that in the traditional role of bass instrumentation in ensemble music the Precision is all that's needed or particularly desirable, and departures from it have led for better or worse into an essentially different instrument with a musically different role, more guitar than bass. And you don't want to hear about that, either.

That has little to do with my beef against the passive V/V/T P+J, which is mainly about it being what I call a "pothead concept," a gristlehead's bright idea based in technical ignorance of the relevant engineering and having too much weed and time on his hands.

And if you don't understand the engineering, don't try to make something more complex, because it's not going to work out in any predictably favorable way. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] rarely do what they were envisioned as doing and frequently work so atrociously that even the typical gristlehead user assumes that they must be busted, miswired or made with the wrong parts.

If all the geeks think that's reactionary, I'd point out that even today, the large majority of guitars and basses used in real recording are still a handful of designs fifty or sixty years old and relatively unchanged.

If you're going to be "innovative," put down the reefer and go into digital engineering where you can actually make a difference and stop trying to wreck iconic instrument designs that already work well enough in the real world. All the go-faster crap has come and gone and the producer still wants to see a basic Precision for the first-track bass line.

So now I am curious, at what point in your reply do you feel that you were not being a P bass purist??

Obviously you are a huge fan of either Precisions or single pickup basses. Everyone has their preferences and yours is neither more nor less valid than mine or anyone elses. Two or three pickup basses are not train wrecks sonically. In many circumstances their sonic differences from single pickup basses are too nuanced to pick out but that is also true of the cello section in an orchestra. In other circumstances the differences are quite clear and if you do not appreciate them, many of us do.

In terms of engineering, I have a Masters Degree and 38 years experience as an electronics design engineer. There is no train wreck electronically when two pickups are combined with VVT or a switch. In fact with VVT you have the option to combine them more gently due to the resistive padding the volume controls can provide. If there were going to be an electronic train wreck it would happen by combining the two pickups with a switch. Yet that is the approach you advocate. To avoid a train wreck. Certainly, if you want to isolate the P pickup in a P/J to get an authentic P bass sound switches are probably necessary. The Tony Franklin bass does that but in the P/J position the two pickups are just mercilessly jammed together by a dead short. If you want to lay some engineering arguments on me, be my guest. The ones I have seen quoted to date (not necessarily by you, I don't keep track) have just been personal tonal preferences dressed up in engineering jargon. Electrons don't care about this, musicians' ears and brains do.

I am not completely convinced that I do not want to use a switch on my P/J given the way I use it. But that doubt on my part is not due to engineering reasons. I have it set up right now to use a switched capacitor tone control in passive mode but when I use passive mode I tend to use just the P pickup and I might prefer a traditional tone control. I could use a switch and the blend pot to give me that....

 

[Stranger Danger]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Charley Umbria]

So, if we are indeed talking about passive P/J's here...

I think it's pretty simple: if you want "real" P-Bass tone, buy a P/J with a standard P-pickup in the standard P-pickup position.

The J-pickup can be slightly overwound to more closely match the output of the P-pup (Lindy Fralin offers one such set). If you're a super tone purist, drop in a push-pull volume knob for the J-pup, so you can take it completely out of the circuit, leaving unmolested P-Bass goodness. Will you get a "real" Jazz Bass (or Jazz pickup) tone? No. Will you get a solid P-Bass tone, plus some added sonic options? Yes!

I own two P/J's: one wired V/V/T and one wired V/V/T with a switch to remove the J-pickup. Both do a thoroughly convincing P-Bass tone, and (IMHO) will work for anything short of A/B-ing against a vintage P-Bass in a hermetically sealed lab.

 

[electracoyote]

I own two P/J's: one wired V/V/T and one wired V/V/T with a switch to remove the J-pickup. Both do a thoroughly convincing P-Bass tone, and (IMHO) will work for anything short of A/B-ing against a vintage P-Bass in a hermetically sealed lab.

Good post, good points.

But it kind of reinforces my personal belief that the only P/J's I've heard that sounded good to me sounded like, well, P-basses.

 

[Charley Umbria]

...and I can't argue with that logic. The P-Bass sound is inarguably a classic, and for good reason. I wouldn't want to own a P/J that couldn't give me that sound, either!

 

[Bongolation]

In terms of engineering, I have a Masters Degree and 38 years experience as an electronics design engineer. There is no train wreck electronically when two pickups are combined with VVT or a switch. In fact with VVT you have the option to combine them more gently due to the resistive padding the volume controls can provide.

That's the intent, but it simply doesn't work that way in practice -- at least not consistently.

The problem is GLARING on a lot of passive P+Js, so much so that it doesn't take any more qualifications than having a bit of hearing left to see there's a big problem somewhere in the concept -- the volume controls don't work properly together, there are all these weird-sounding peaks and cancellations when you try to mix the pickups, etc., etc.

There's no question as to there being a serious problem. The question for the engineer is why. I'm a BFA, not an MSE so I've asked guys who are -- on more technical forums. The most thoughtful response (thoughtful enough to lose me pretty quick) I posted verbatim in "Pickups & Electronics" here a year or two ago. I'll try to find it and you can see what you make of it.

My real question is why you haven't noticed the problem in the first place.

I mean, I know that all passive V/V/T P+Js aren't as horrifically screwy as the old Fender "Hot Rodded Precision Bass" which had the same V/V/T plan as nearly every other P+J, but in forty-plus years of working with this junk, I've never really seen passive V/V/T on any bass (much less a P+J) work up to the platonic ideal of the concept you seem to take for granted.

I know fantasy and denial are the driving wheels of gear forums, but still, any analytical, engineery kinda guy would have to notice anomalous behavior with this circuit concept after a while and have it bug him in the wee, sleepless hours of the night.

Anyway, this weirdness goes away when you use a switch to isolate the pickups in use. It simplifies the signal path, makes the output more predictable and doesn't try to force pretty dissimilar pickups to play nicely when they're not inclined to by nature. The P pickup sounds like a P and the J sounds like a J and you get a bonus both-on position to take a crapshoot chance on.

It's interesting that switching is and always has been almost universal in two-pickup guitars, irrespective of pots layout -- and this is not merely because of Lead/Rhythm shuffling, but because of the murky sound that becomes apparent most of the time when the pickups are mixed together. If you want to twiddle knobs all day (and I'm sure you know people like this), you can salvage a few neat sounds from out of the mud maybe, but for me I'd rather deal with the straight pickup output.

Take the cash and let the credit go.

 

[LanEvo]

All I know is, I've played a bunch of high-end basses with a P-J pickup configuration (Pedulla Buzz, Fodera Monarch, my Kawai KRB, Tune Bass Maniac, etc.) and they've all sounded pretty badass to me

 

[LanEvo]

I'd like to see what might be some other things to check out?

I'd be all over this if I were you: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f126/fs-80s-yamaha-bb2000-w-ohsc-1019564/

 

[SplinteredSkull]

Well this certainly "sparked" into something different haha. Apparently there is controversy over P/J basses then. But still some good info to be found.

 

[Whit Townsend]

Had Fernandez passive PJ for a while that was nice

 

[a_ribbon]

That's the intent, but it simply doesn't work that way in practice -- at least not consistently.

The problem is GLARING on a lot of passive P+Js, so much so that it doesn't take any more qualifications than having a bit of hearing left to see there's a big problem somewhere in the concept -- the volume controls don't work properly together, there are all these weird-sounding peaks and cancellations when you try to mix the pickups, etc., etc.

There's no question as to there being a serious problem. The question for the engineer is why. I'm a BFA, not an MSE so I've asked guys who are -- on more technical forums. The most thoughtful response (thoughtful enough to lose me pretty quick) I posted verbatim in "Pickups & Electronics" here a year or two ago. I'll try to find it and you can see what you make of it.

My real question is why you haven't noticed the problem in the first place.

I mean, I know that all passive V/V/T P+Js aren't as horrifically screwy as the old Fender "Hot Rodded Precision Bass" which had the same V/V/T plan as nearly every other P+J, but in forty-plus years of working with this junk, I've never really seen passive V/V/T on any bass (much less a P+J) work up to the platonic ideal of the concept you seem to take for granted.

I know fantasy and denial are the driving wheels of gear forums, but still, any analytical, engineery kinda guy would have to notice anomalous behavior with this circuit concept after a while and have it bug him in the wee, sleepless hours of the night.

Anyway, this weirdness goes away when you use a switch to isolate the pickups in use. It simplifies the signal path, makes the output more predictable and doesn't try to force pretty dissimilar pickups to play nicely when they're not inclined to by nature. The P pickup sounds like a P and the J sounds like a J and you get a bonus both-on position to take a crapshoot chance on.

It's interesting that switching is and always has been almost universal in two-pickup guitars, irrespective of pots layout -- and this is not merely because of Lead/Rhythm shuffling, but because of the murky sound that becomes apparent most of the time when the pickups are mixed together. If you want to twiddle knobs all day (and I'm sure you know people like this), you can salvage a few neat sounds from out of the mud maybe, but for me I'd rather deal with the straight pickup output.

Take the cash and let the credit go.

and no matter how many PJ threads you troll with your opinions there are millions of people out there that own passive PJs with VVT that love them.

 

[Bongolation]

So now I am curious, at what point in your reply do you feel that you were not being a P bass purist??

Oh, that!

It's not that I'm a "P bass purist," it's just that I feel that beyond that point lies mostly counterproductive distraction as first-track bass goes. Effects bass is a different issue.

It's not that I'm conceptually mired in 1958. I'm conceptually in the present and near future, which is and will continue to increasingly be about DI recording with a minimum of analog outboard processing, for the purpose of upstream digital treatment by mix engineers and the producer (even if -- God help you! -- they're all you in your home studio).

It doesn't have to come from a Precision at all. Just give me a good thump bass with even output and enough low-end tonal complexity to be whittled on by some mix genius. The easiest answer for that is just a P with flats, but most passives with a neck pickup will work. The point is to simplify the transduction of an analog instrumental track performance into ones and zeroes and go home, letting the division of labor do its thing.

The bass itself is not hugely important, so don't fixate on complicating it with a bunch of excess crap and extraneous faulty electronics that complicate and foul the process.

 

[Bongolation]

and no matter how many PJ threads you troll with your opinions there are millions of people out there that own passive PJs with VVT that love them.

Wow, I guess you told me!

 

[Charley Umbria]

That's the intent, but it simply doesn't work that way in practice -- at least not consistently.

[...]

Anyway, this weirdness goes away when you use a switch to isolate the pickups in use. It simplifies the signal path, makes the output more predictable and doesn't try to force pretty dissimilar pickups to play nicely when they're not inclined to by nature. The P pickup sounds like a P and the J sounds like a J and you get a bonus both-on position to take a crapshoot chance on...

Now, here's a song we can all dance to!

I absolutely agree; even if you love the sound of your P and J pickups soloed, there's no way to know whether or not any two pickups will play together nicely on a given bass without actually trying it.

That's the biggest reason why I'd never try to build a P/J or modify a P into a P/J. The results might just suck! On the other hand, I've found two P/J's that I love. But, I had the opportunity to try them out and see if I liked the sound, first...

 

[a_ribbon]

don't you ever get tired of posting massive walls of texts trying to convince people to not like something they already like? you waste so much energy on so many threads. it just seems odd to me. if you don't like PJs then don't play them.