Interval Chart Question:::

[SurferJoe46]

I finally found a teacher whom I can relate to as he's what I consider a really great player and he has taught me a lot so far.

Confidence I have - but theory I have very little. He tells me I am a natural and that I really don't need much instruction, but I twisted his arm and he's helping me to learn things I shoulda known anyway - a long time ago.

You might remember that I was wobbling over whether I would get lessons or not - so I decided to upset my gray matter and try to understand what I am doing when I play.

As it is I've had several 'ah HAH!' moments by myself and that's all well and good.

My first lesson was only yesterday - and I've been looking at this chart :::

...and although my teacher told me all about it and I nodded my head at the time - I've forgotten what it means.

What does that word UNISON mean, and what is a PERFECT 5th?

Can anyone illuminate me again? My next lesson is next Wednesday and I don't want to look stupid when I show up.

Here's the second part of that chart - which also totally confuses me.:::

Is this all also related to The Circle Of Fifths?

For reference I am studying in The Bass Grimoire, by Adam Kadman.

 

[Billnc]

To me this is another example of graphs and charts complicating things. Musical material is not notated or referenced this way.

The circle of fifths is only the cricle of fifths.

This is so 80's it hurts. Music is notated on the staff. Intervals can be learned on the staff. You can hum and sing information on the staff, which is what intervals ultimately are, musical information. Little blocks are bogus and not how musical information is conveyed at all.

It is not this hard!

 

[David1234]

Unison = the same pitch.

If you play any note, then use that note to start a major scale, stop when you get to note 5. Now play the original note and note 5 and the difference in pitch between them is a perfect 5th.

I'm not a fan of that chart, because I would have started it at zero rather than at one.

(I don't teach intervals until a student can sing or at the very least play a major scale)

 

[Warfender]

i AGREE, i KNOW MY STUDENTS WOULD BE LOST WITH THIS. i THINK HE IS TRYING TO TEACH YOU ...OPPS sorry for the cap..anyway, he is trying to teach you intervals which is the distance from one note to another in a scale, i.e. whole step half step. This you can create the scale of and key in any form such as the major scale in the example.

from that in his next lesson he is probably going to convey a chordal tone is a third away or called a stacked third. For example, in key of C and scale is CDEFGAB with C being the root (and 1) count to the 3rd note ala CDE, E is the 3rd and do the same from E to get to G. Doing this you get the notes in the chords. I hope this helps. He is staring at the very beginning so you probably know the stuff it is just the way he is teaching it which is a little confusing.

 

[Billnc]

Teaching is the art of clearing confusion not creating it.

 

[Stick_Player]

Reminds me of these:

Preschooler's counting blocks.

 

[SurferJoe46]

Unison = the same pitch.

If you play any note, then use that note to start a major scale, stop when you get to note 5. Now play the original note and note 5 and the difference in pitch between them is a perfect 5th.

I'm not a fan of that chart, because I would have started it at zero rather than at one.

(I don't teach intervals until a student can sing or at the very least play a major scale)

i AGREE, i KNOW MY STUDENTS WOULD BE LOST WITH THIS. i THINK HE IS TRYING TO TEACH YOU ...OPPS sorry for the cap..anyway, he is trying to teach you intervals which is the distance from one note to another in a scale, i.e. whole step half step. This you can create the scale of and key in any form such as the major scale in the example.

from that in his next lesson he is probably going to convey a chordal tone is a third away or called a stacked third. For example, in key of C and scale is CDEFGAB with C being the root (and 1) count to the 3rd note ala CDE, E is the 3rd and do the same from E to get to G. Doing this you get the notes in the chords. I hope this helps. He is staring at the very beginning so you probably know the stuff it is just the way he is teaching it which is a little confusing.

I think he went this way as I can visualize a keyboard and can see the black/white keys and am trying to make the association.

I asked 'why no number one' too, and he said there is no reason to consider an open fret at this time - but I may have that confused yet.

He wants me playing - over and over and over - all the notes in a key, starting with plain white bread C and then we'll go from there. I'm to sharp the position by one interval at a time until I get to the 12th, and then work back down again.

He tried calling 'I', 'IV', 'V' as I was playing with him and I can follow that really well - and even I was surprised.

I can see this later going into arpeggios and working up and down the fretboard, so there's light at the end of the tunnel.

Right now - terminology is kinda escaping me and I might inadvertently call a Club a Spade a few times yet - bear with me.

 

[nutdog]

Do, Re, Mi, Fa, So, La, Ti, Do. The fancy musical term for this is the major scale.

Do=1
Re=2
Mi=3
Fa=4
So=5
La=6
Ti=7
Do=1 (or 8)

The blocks are like the frets on your bass. Each block is moving up a fret. Moving up 7 frets is the 5th note in the major scale. If you start on C, moving 7 frets up is a G. G is a the perfect 5th in the C major scale, commonly referred to as just the 5th or 5. C would be the 1st or 1 (root, fundamental, key)

In A, the 5th is E. You probably know this instinctively because these notes sound good together. That's why most songs that feature an A also have an E.

Of course, if your mother didn't love the Sound of Music and you didn't watch it with her multiple times this analogy may not be helpful.

If you haven't seen it, it's actually a very good movie.

Now perhaps someone could help me. I was asked not to sign up for band after freshman year so my training is limited and mostly self taught. I was under the impression a minor 2nd and major 2nd were the same thing. I didn't think moving up 1 interval was a minor 2nd. I'm not sure what the correct name would be but I thought a minor 2nd was two intervals up just like a major 2nd. It's the 3rd that's different (minor is 3 intervals, major is 4). Am I wrong?

 

[JTE]

A. I hate "The Bass Grimore".
B. Learn music, not shapes. I suggest a copy of "Edly's Music Theory For Practical People".
C. Intervals are simply the distance between notes. They have specific names, but the main part of each name comes from the distance from the starting note to the other note. From C to E is a third (technically a major third) because C is first, D is second, so E is third. It's a major third because it sounds major. C to Eb is also a third for the same reason, but it's minor because of how it sounds. The sound of a step and a half (as C to Eb) is a minor third, the sound of two whole steps (C to E) is a major third.
D. You only "know" any of this stuff if you know how it sounds. You don't understand any of this until you can hear it.

John

 

[SurferJoe46]

<snip>
C. Intervals are simply the distance between notes. They have specific names, but the main part of each name comes from the distance from the starting note to the other note. From C to E is a third (technically a major third) because C is first, D is second, so E is third. It's a major third because it sounds major. C to Eb is also a third for the same reason, but it's minor because of how it sounds. The sound of a step and a half (as C to Eb) is a minor third, the sound of two whole steps (C to E) is a major third.
D. You only "know" any of this stuff if you know how it sounds. You don't understand any of this until you can hear it.

John

From C to E is a third (technically a major third) because C is first, D is second, so E is third. It's a major third because it sounds major. C to Eb is also a third for the same reason, but it's minor because of how it sounds. The sound of a step and a half (as C to Eb) is a minor third, the sound of two whole steps (C to E) is a major third.

You have just given me my personal Rosetta Stone!


Thank-you

Thank-you

Thank-you!

 

[Stick_Player]

The sound of a step and a half (as C to Eb) is a minor third

The sound of a step and a half (as C to D#) is an augmented second.

 

[Billnc]

The sound of a step and a half (as C to D#) is an augmented second.

The Jimi Hendrix chord

 

[JTE]

Like we need to confuse someone who is just getting through the confusing part.

The "Hendrix chord"- really a #9 chord consisting of 1, 3, 5, b7, and #9 does have that wierdness that I tend to associate with having the major third and the minor third, thinking of that #9 as the b3 (Eb), not the sharp 4 (D#).

John

 

[Stick_Player]

The Jimi Hendrix chord

An "Augmented 2nd" interval should not be confused with an "Augmented 9th" chord (1, M3, P5, b7, #9), nor a "Minor 3rd" interval.

The "Augmented 2nd" does occur in a Harmonic Minor scale. For example, in an "A Harmonic Minor Scale" (A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A), the interval F to G# is a step and a half (Augmented 2nd) - not to be confused with the enharmonic interval F to Ab (Minor 3rd).

The "Augmented 2nd" doesn't function the same as a "Minor 3rd" - even though they are both an interval of a step and a half and on their own, sound the same.

... thinking of that #9 as the b3 (Eb), not the sharp 4 (D#)

One can't really do that. The "#9" resolves up (theoretically). And you can't use the label "sharp 4" to describe a "#9". A "#4" or, usually labeled "#11" is something totally different.

 

[Steve Dixon]

you guys who think intervals can most easily be taught to a newbie student via the staff obviously never had to explain these concepts to a newbie student

if you have some kid sat there in front of you, wanting to learn to play the bass, and you want to introduce him to intervals, you're going to bore him to death by FIRST making him learn about staffs, clefs, bar lines, ledger lines, key signatures and all the other furniture he or she will see on a score... JUST so you can teach him the intervallic distance of a minor 3rd

what you'll end up with is an ex-student... just learning intervals is boring enough to some kid who came to you because he wanted to learn metallica songs

to teach basic, within-the-octave intervals to a new student you need to:

1. demonstrate the basic building blocks (whole steps/half steps)
   
2. demonstrate the major scale, and how it's made up of a specific series of W/H steps, which gives it its characteristic sound
   
3. show how the intervals are named after their position in the major scale
   
4. show how each of the 4 major intervals has a minor counterpart
   
5. show them the tritone/#4/b5

none of those things require your student to look at a staff... you'd be better spending your time showing them what these intervals SOUND like, and look like under their fingers on the fretboard

if some kid says to you "hey mister, what's a half tone?", you wouldn't say, "glad you asked, let me get my sheet of manuscript paper, and I'll draw up a clef, and a few blobs and show you... that blob there, on that line is a F sharp... that little hash sign is a 'sharp' symbol, etc.... oh, that squiggle there? that's a clef.. amongst other things it shows you what the notes value of these lines are... I know you only asked what a half tone was, but you need to know this stuff first..."

no, you'd sing it to them, show it on the bass/piano/guitar, so they could hear it, and give a brief verbal explanation of what they're hearing

don't forget, the staff is just the recipe anyway - it's just a way of describing and understanding music... the existence of "human-organised sound waves" pre-dates western notation by several thousand years

western music theory is not perfect - compromises are made all the time for convenience: the Hendrix chord is only called a 7#9 chord because we don't have a convenient way of naming a chord that has both a major and a minor 3rd in it... don't try & tell me that the 'G' in the Hendrix chord in Purple Haze is functioning as a sharpened 9th

 

[Steve Dixon]

oh, and also... ear training

best way to really 'get' intervals is to spend hours working on your ear so you can instantly recognize them... if you literally couldn't spot a major 6th if someone played one at you, you don't really know intervals...

 

[Billnc]

Guys, (JTE) I didn't explain the 'Hendrix' chord at all, bad inside joke that's all. That hopefully OP missed entirely.

Steve, you are correct. I prefer to have the students learn chord construction. When they can sing the chord tones start adding the other notes in the octave. It's so rare that any of them actually take this (ear training) seriously. We are in a hearing art, better to listen fast than play fast, which seems to be the only concern.

 

[Stick_Player]

western music theory is not perfect - compromises are made all the time for convenience: the Hendrix chord is only called a 7#9 chord because we don't have a convenient way of naming a chord that has both a major and a minor 3rd in it... don't try & tell me that the 'G' in the Hendrix chord in Purple Haze is functioning as a sharpened 9th

You are correct in saying that "western music theory is not perfect" - that's why it's called "theory".

I'm assuming the "Hendrix" chord you are referring to is an E7#9? That'd be an F## (#9), not a G (m3). As far as it's function? It's simply a sound in that context.

Maybe one would prefer to call it an E7b10? But NOT a "Hendrix" chord. That presumes he invented it.

 

[JimmyM]

you guys who think intervals can most easily be taught to a newbie student via the staff obviously never had to explain these concepts to a newbie student

if you have some kid sat there in front of you, wanting to learn to play the bass, and you want to introduce him to intervals, you're going to bore him to death by FIRST making him learn about staffs, clefs, bar lines, ledger lines, key signatures and all the other furniture he or she will see on a score... JUST so you can teach him the intervallic distance of a minor 3rd

what you'll end up with is an ex-student... just learning intervals is boring enough to some kid who came to you because he wanted to learn metallica songs

my reply to that student: "good. bye, junior. come back when you want to learn how to play and make music and not just where to put your fingers to play metallica songs badly."

if you're bored to death by learning the stuff that makes playing music infinitely easier and better in the long run, then you probably shouldn't have me as a teacher. what you're talking about is what's known as "mall teaching," where the idea is to keep making money every week, and never mind whether you're teaching the kid anything useful.

i have no patience for some kid who thinks owning an instrument makes him a musician and thinks he should dictate the lesson plan.

 

[Billnc]

Jimmy I thought the same thing at first, but in the end Steve does explain the intervals. Though learning to read is easier I believe than his statement implies. I've taught really young kids to do it, and is a requirement for all my students.

(and the Hendrix chord was a joke!)