Double Bass Intonation

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I’m working on a series of videos to serve as a practical guide to intonation. I was hoping to discuss a couple of things here with the community. My first question: when I was coming up around these parts, “Just Intonation” was referred to as “Pure Intonation”. Research online shows that the former term is correct but that the two are synonymous. I kind of like the latter term and will likely use it in my presentation, but am just wondering if others have had the same experience?

 

[evanrunyon]

”Pure” is more colloquial, “just” is the more technical. I never hear “pure” used in academic or pedagogical circumstances; I believe because the word has positive value connotations whereas “just” is more value neutral.

Which is to say, for a practical guide I'd say use whichever word you prefer; JI or HP nerds will inevitably object (as they will to most anything).

 

[SteveCS]

I’m working on a series of videos to serve as a practical guide to intonation. I was hoping to discuss a couple of things here with the community. My first question: when I was coming up around these parts, “Just Intonation” was referred to as “Pure Intonation”. Research online shows that the former term is correct but that the two are synonymous. I kind of like the latter term and will likely use it in my presentation, but am just wondering if others have had the same experience?

Agree with @evanrunyon. I prefer 'Just' but I have no objection to either since 'Pure' cannot really have any alternative meaning AFAIK.

Obviously your focus here will be on DB, so as a player of fretless BG and not DB, I don't really have any real skin in this particular game, but intonation is a big deal for me. I had an 'interesting' discussion elsewhere on the very subject where folks were saying that, for example C# is always a little sharper than Db by virtue of nothing but the accidental. It wasn't difficult to show that this was not the case and that there are many instances where, depending on key and the interval, Db ends up sharper than C#. As such it will very interesting to see what practical guidance and insight you come up with. Also happy to contribute is you feel like hearing the perspective of a 'hack' outsider!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

@SteveCS absolutely! The more the merrier. Intonation is intonation.

One of the things I have focused on both in my own practice and also with students over the years is the ability to hear the beat patterns (or lack thereof) of each interval in an intuitive way. 25 years of drone practice has been invaluable as one tool for honing this sense. In both cases, it’s a matter knowing where to look (or in our case, where to listen) in the overall conglomerate sound to be able to focus on that specific aspect.

Another has been to work on developing a sense of Kinesthetic intonation, which began with the realization that the beat patterns we feel in the body where we touch the bass are the same beat patterns that we hear with our ears. I sometimes feel that the Kinesthetic awareness is somehow “quicker” than the aural one, but can’t prove this in any empirical way. Not that it matters whether it’s just a perception or not. The point is that they work together, and as with right and left hand technique, we will play better when they are as in sync as possible. I ended up eschewing flat back basses for this reason because I feel - again, without empirical evidence - that the bracing disrupts the vibrations in the back as compared to a round back bass.

The whole subject is a giant, never ending rabbit hole, but a fascinating one. I look forward to hearing people’s thoughts.

 

[KeepItMoving]

@SteveCS absolutely! The more the merrier. Intonation is intonation.

One of the things I have focused on both in my own practice and also with students over the years is the ability to hear the beat patterns (or lack thereof) of each interval in an intuitive way. 25 years of drone practice has been invaluable as one tool for honing this sense. In both cases, it’s a matter knowing where to look (or in our case, where to listen) in the overall conglomerate sound to be able to focus on that specific aspect.

I, too, am coming from the fretless BG world, where I'm a recent arrival. In getting up to speed I've been reading about various aspects of intonation, and in my experience, "just" seems like a more common descriptor than "pure." But as others have noted, either would probably work fine.

And, I VERY much don't want to derail the discussion, but, I found your comment about intuitive hearing of beat patterns and "knowing where to listen" quite interesting, based on my first rounds of ear-training experience. If there were any resources on that that you could point to, it would be much appreciated. Of course, maybe that's the sort of thing you'll be covering in your videos, which sound like they'll be very valuable.

If it would help keep things orderly here, I'd be happy to start a new thread.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

@KeepItMoving no worries. That’s part of what I’m hoping to cover in the videos. I like the word “Pure” because of the way that just intonation is built on simple, rational ratios. So in my lizard brain, I am ever trying to micro adjust to “Purify” every note if it starts off with any “impurity”.

The first video begins with basic stuff about interval ratios, covers how each of the ratios is basically a sped up polyrhythm, and then encourages the listener to basically absorb the sound and feel of the beating or “turbulence “ of that interval. It ends by covering all the intervals from most consonant to most dissonant, in order, and toggling back and forth from Pure intervals to Equal Tempered ones, so that the difference between a pure and an impure interval becomes readily aurally apparent.

 

[damonsmith]

I think you are trying to be more clear, "Just" is more well known and is better to use as shorthand. Pure actually seems more situational, and could also be used the "right" pitch for the room and combination of instruments.

 

[WG Plum]

Really looking forward to these. Will they cover exercises on shifting and finding notes, or will they assume knowledge of the fingerboard?

My teacher has given me a simple exercise of saying out loud the scale degree and how many steps to the next degree before playing the next. It's extremely helpful in building muscle memory for things are.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I think you are trying to be more clear, "Just" is more well known and is better to use as shorthand. Pure actually seems more situational, and could also be used the "right" pitch for the room and combination of instruments.

You are correct, which is why I am leaning toward "Pure", because there is a difference between "being absolutely in tune" and "being as in tune as it is possible to be given the other sounds happening in the same context". But I will put in a disclaimer at the beginning that they are being used synonymously, and that I prefer this term for my own reasons.

Really looking forward to these. Will they cover exercises on shifting and finding notes, or will they assume knowledge of the fingerboard?

My teacher has given me a simple exercise of saying out loud the scale degree and how many steps to the next degree before playing the next. It's extremely helpful in building muscle memory for things are.

Finding notes, yes, shifting, only a little at best. I have a plan for a set of Calibration videos where I will cover shifting in more detail. But the TLDR version is to stay on the string as much as possible. Every shift therefore becomes a silent glissando, assuming you can "hide the vomit" well enough.

 

[SteveCS]

I think you are trying to be more clear, "Just" is more well known and is better to use as shorthand. Pure actually seems more situational, and could also be used the "right" pitch for the room and combination of instruments.

Good call Damon - that sounds like valid, and important - distinction

 

[KeepItMoving]

@KeepItMoving no worries. That’s part of what I’m hoping to cover in the videos. I like the word “Pure” because of the way that just intonation is built on simple, rational ratios. So in my lizard brain, I am ever trying to micro adjust to “Purify” every note if it starts off with any “impurity”.

The first video begins with basic stuff about interval ratios, covers how each of the ratios is basically a sped up polyrhythm, and then encourages the listener to basically absorb the sound and feel of the beating or “turbulence “ of that interval. It ends by covering all the intervals from most consonant to most dissonant, in order, and toggling back and forth from Pure intervals to Equal Tempered ones, so that the difference between a pure and an impure interval becomes readily aurally apparent.

You are correct, which is why I am leaning toward "Pure", because there is a difference between "being absolutely in tune" and "being as in tune as it is possible to be given the other sounds happening in the same context". But I will put in a disclaimer at the beginning that they are being used synonymously, and that I prefer this term for my own reasons.

This take on "purity" certainly seems worth a few seconds in the videos - it's quite interesting and goes to pretty fundamental aspects of the situation! I don't think you need to apologize for using it; maybe more of an explanation than a disclaimer?

And I very much hope to see what you come up with! Is there anyplace one can sign up to be notified upon release?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

This take on "purity" certainly seems worth a few seconds in the videos - it's quite interesting and goes to pretty fundamental aspects of the situation! I don't think you need to apologize for using it; maybe more of an explanation than a disclaimer?

And I very much hope to see what you come up with! Is there anyplace one can sign up to be notified upon release?

They will be released on my YouTube page, which is linked at the bottom of all my posts. It may be some time before they are released, as I will need release at least the first two together so I don't end up releasing only a really technical math based video without showing where all of that is leading in practical terms. My students have been getting on me for the length of my videos, and have convinced me to segment them into shorter chapters instead of the monstrously long ones I usually do. :

But for now the plan is three parts:
1) "Just Math", including what we have been discussing here;
2) "The Sweet Spot", showing how to find these Pure intervals intuitively on the instrument in reference to an external drone, using our ears to find these interval ratios by finding the point of "least turbulence" for each.
3) As yet untitled, covering details like the difference between arco and pizz intonation, what happens to our sense of Pure intonation when we play with Equal Tempered instruments, or ensembles where a group of imperfect humans are not playing perfectly in tune, and a few other odds and ends.

 

[Tom Lane]

When I picked up the DB, I wondered why my intonation seemed "off" but sounded correct to me. I learned about "just" intonation versus "natural" intonation. I haven't heard of "pure" intonation before. As I understand it, "just" was invented for keyboard instruments and "natural" are what a string quartet uses when there's no piano player with them. "Natural" intonation is just the harmonic series. I had to teach myself to intonate to "just" intonation by playing with a piano or software because I heard the "natural" intonation and so my 3rds, 5ths, and major 7ths were off a bit. I think of intonation as just another device that we can use when making music. Sharping a Major 7th or flatting a flatted-9th to a tonic can be emotionally very powerful, IMO.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

@Tom Lane Actually, Equal Temperament is how pianos are tuned, with each interval slightly out of tune to allow for playing in all 12 keys, and Just/Pure intonation (sometimes called "5-limit just intonation") represents the pure intervals derived from the harmonic series.

 

[KeepItMoving]

They will be released on my YouTube page, which is linked at the bottom of all my posts. It may be some time before they are released, as I will need release at least the first two together so I don't end up releasing only a really technical math based video without showing where all of that is leading in practical terms. My students have been getting on me for the length of my videos, and have convinced me to segment them into shorter chapters instead of the monstrously long ones I usually do. :

But for now the plan is three parts:
1) "Just Math", including what we have been discussing here;
2) "The Sweet Spot", showing how to find these Pure intervals intuitively on the instrument in reference to an external drone, using our ears to find these interval ratios by finding the point of "least turbulence" for each.
3) As yet untitled, covering details like the difference between arco and pizz intonation, what happens to our sense of Pure intonation when we play with Equal Tempered instruments, or ensembles where a group of imperfect humans are not playing perfectly in tune, and a few other odds and ends.

Sounds like a really thoughtful and informative approach, and I'll keep an eye out - thanks!

 

[Wasnex]

I was a full-time pro bassist (bass guitar and upright) for about 18 years. Most of my peers had Bachelors and Masters degrees. Some had completed their Doctorate. I don't ever remember hearing the term "pure intonation." If I did hear it, it was not often.

I did a Google search of "pure intonation and the top returns were on "just intonation." I.E. pure intonation is another term for just intonation. If the goal is to teach others, I suggest using the more common term .

 

[Tom Lane]

@Tom Lane Actually, Equal Temperament is how pianos are tuned, with each interval slightly out of tune to allow for playing in all 12 keys, and Just/Pure intonation (sometimes called "5-limit just intonation") represents the pure intervals derived from the harmonic series.

Oh cool! I swapped them! Good to know!

 

[jj.833]

Being no native English speaker, 'just' I can understand, 'pure' feels vague to me. My feeling is that the debate of just and tempered intonation, spiced with the leading tones intonated closer to resolution, it is very easy to get mystic and lead anybody who don't yet have enough practical experience astray.

 

[crd]

I'm gonna be disappointed if this isn't a two hour video about how to play the bass in just intonation complete with some arrangements of Harry Partch pieces for bass.
/s

This stuff has actually been on mind a lot lately. I've been slowly trying to map harmonics on the instrument and I love the rub you get in the higher harmonics against open strings.

 

[evanrunyon]

The look on my freshman students’ faces when I point out that they’re, in fact, already using Pythagorean tuning whenever they tune up their instruments via harmonics is pretty great. Learning about tuning systems opens up a whole wide world that’s both overwhelming and also deeply approachable—though there’s more than a few gatekeepers out there that’d love for it to remain ever so arcane. The more we can get everyone thinking about ratios and temperaments the better off we’ll ALL be!