Double Bass Intonation

[rickdog]

I usually hang out on the BG side - but since I play fretless, intonation is always on my mind, so when this new thread popped up it caught my eye.

Anyone who's interested in this thread might enjoy Tuning Information. Be warned, you could get lost in there!

 

[Ryan in PDX]

Data point: I've never heard the term "pure intonation" before. If I saw that term without reading your post, I'd assume you'd come up with your own tuning system - and probably wouldn't click on that search result if I were looking for just intonation. "Just" my opinion, of course.

This is a great topic. When I sing harmonies, I unconsciously adjust for those perfect intervals. When I play scales on the bass, I unconsciously use the piano notes. Playing a scale with a drone, I unconsciously want to play perfect intervals because they sound better. Playing in a combo, I'd like to think I'm consciously following the piano 's intonation, but have to admit I don't think about it much. I really should, though.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Data point: I've never heard the term "pure intonation" before. If I saw that term without reading your post, I'd assume you'd come up with your own tuning system - and probably wouldn't click on that search result if I were looking for just intonation. "Just" my opinion, of course.

This is a great topic. When I sing harmonies, I unconsciously adjust for those perfect intervals. When I play scales on the bass, I unconsciously use the piano notes. Playing a scale with a drone, I unconsciously want to play perfect intervals because they sound better. Playing in a combo, I'd like to think I'm consciously following the piano 's intonation, but have to admit I don't think about it much. I really should, though.

You are right on the same path that I am. The possible exception is that when I play scales on the bass, it is usually against a drone, or I am imagining a tonic drone, so I am shooting for just/pure intervals because they make more sense in that context. As for the rest, I agree with you.

I made a recording with a string quartet and piano last year. The players were top shelf pro players, and all followed their instincts. Before the piano entered, the intonation was just/pure. Once it entered, I was instantly with the piano, and the quartet took a minute to come around. “Pure” means in tune with what is actually happening now in the moment. If the piano is playing a tempered major third in a chord, you go with that, because it can’t adjust. If you play just 3rds against that, it sounds bad. If that means you are now playing it technically sharp against the root of the chord, that’s how it goes. You serve the music that’s actually happening. Full Stop. Be “right” and sound bad, or accept reality and sound less bad. Is that actually a real question?

I guess that’s why I prefer the term “pure” in the final analysis. One of the forum’s longest term members, a person I very much respect, has the user title “inadvertent microtonalist”, which is meant to be a form of self deprecating humor. But really, it’s a form of honestly that is all too rare these days. We are constantly adjusting. We adjust to what’s actually happening. That’s what musical life, and all life, really, actually is.

One of the points it has taken me years to formulate as a concept, which I hope to highlight in the third installment, is that when you are playing with an equal tempered instrument, what you are actually doing is playing in just/pure intonation with the unison or octave that the equal tempered instrument is actually playing technically “out of tune” by x cents. So, instead of playing technically out of tune in theory, you are actually playing technically in tune in practice. The challenge is going to be making that point in a logical and intuitive way that resonates just like the practice of intonating that way does in any given moment.

 

[Ryan in PDX]

You are right on the same path that I am. The possible exception is that when I play scales on the bass, it is usually against a drone, or I am imagining a tonic drone, so I am shooting for just/pure intervals because they make more sense in that context. As for the rest, I agree with you.

I made a recording with a string quartet and piano last year. The players were top shelf pro players, and all followed their instincts. Before the piano entered, the intonation was just/pure. Once it entered, I was instantly with the piano, and the quartet took a minute to come around. “Pure” means in tune with what is actually happening now in the moment. If the piano is playing a tempered major third in a chord, you go with that, because it can’t adjust. If you play just 3rds against that, it sounds bad. If that means you are now playing it technically sharp against the root of the chord, that’s how it goes. You serve the music that’s actually happening. Full Stop. Be “right” and sound bad, or accept reality and sound less bad. Is that actually a real question?

I guess that’s why I prefer the term “pure” in the final analysis. One of the forum’s longest term members, a person I very much respect, has the user title “inadvertent microtonalist”, which is meant to be a form of self deprecating humor. But really, it’s a form of honestly that is all too rare these days. We are constantly adjusting. We adjust to what’s actually happening. That’s what musical life, and all life, really, actually is.

One of the points it has taken me years to formulate as a concept, which I hope to highlight in the third installment, is that when you are playing with an equal tempered instrument, what you are actually doing is playing in just/pure intonation with the unison or octave that the equal tempered instrument is actually playing technically “out of tune” by x cents. So, instead of playing technically out of tune in theory, you are actually playing technically in tune in practice. The challenge is going to be making that point in a logical and intuitive way that resonates just like the practice of intonating that way does in any given moment.

I thought that in the OP, you were talking about using "pure" as a replacement for "just" (ala "anticlockwise"/"counter-clockwise"). I like it as a name for the concept of "knowing more than one way to tune a note, and using the right one at the right time," though. I might as well share some of my other ideas on the topic.

I like to alternate scales with and without a drone. This may be another subject entirely, but I tend to think "vertically" with a drone, really focusing on the harmony between the drone and the note I'm playing. Without a drone, I think "horizontally," focusing on the progression of one note to the next. I'm thinking of both at all times, but one or the other tends to be favored. Sometimes I'll loop a ii V I progression in irealpro as my "drone," which I think helps to hear the equal-tempered color palette (especially since the specific notes in the "drone" are constantly changing), but it has another benefit in that the comping chords are not continuous, so I don't fixate as much on the vertical aspect. Sort of like those metronomes that drop beats now and then.

Singing harmonies with a guitarist (which I've just come back to a bit, after a few years away), I have never analyzed how I tune my vocals vs how i tune my bass notes. I probably should... Punch Brothers are a continually evolving inspiration, and from bluegrass to barbershop to baroque, they always sound "better" than I would expect equal tempered chords to sound, with or without their instruments.

When playing jazz (99% of what I do these days), I don't think about it hardly at all, because I'm way more focused on time, feel, harmony, etc., and consciously tuning every note is low on my priority list at this point in my journey. Usually, there's a piano or guitar, but occasionally there isn't. In those cases, I'm putting even more brain power into playing notes that convey the harmony, without thinking about which version of that note I'm playing. I suppose what comes out is whatever I've been practicing, which is why it's worth practicing everything until its unconscious.

Again, great topic!

 

[garrett2]

Not the bass, but I love this 21st century exploration of just intonation in Bach. The score is below.



Sei Bach Score

 

[Papageno]

That's a fascinating topic.

Like for all of us, "proper" (meaning musically appropriate given the context) intonation is a major concern to me. Yet, to be honnest, the hearing and playing pitch accuracy I capable of is hugely dependent on the pitch, timber, and duration of the note being played: the accuracy I am capable of is not exactly the same for a D played arco on the G string and held for a whole note as for an 8th note low Ab played pizzicato at 120 bpm!

For a low Ab (~52 Hz) of 0.25 s duration, there is barely enough time for a dozen oscillations of the string, not all of which being fully audible, due to the rather slow attack and and fast decay of those fat E strings. Futhermore, the low Ab finds almost no sympathetic resonances among the harmonics of A, D and G open strings. Those facts makes the hearing of the pitch in this case extremely unclear.

By contrast, for the sustained D played arco on the G string, there is plenty of time to hear the pitch and to listen for the beats with the numerous harmonics of the D and A strings that are excited by sympathetic resonance.

I find that when a note is correctly intonated (in this context, this means "just" intonation), the bass sounds more "alive" and "resonant", due to the sympathetic resonances from the other strings. By contrast, if the intonation is off, the bass sounds quite "dead" due to the absence of sympathetic resonances. This is particularly true in keys for which the open strings are diatonic notes, much less so in keys for which the open strings are not diatonic (eg. Db, B).

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

Can't wait to see watch this series when you finish, Chris.

 

[Bass Motifs]

I think of it as harmonic and melodic intonation.

Harmonic = making chords sound pure (so whoever has the third needs to pay real attention). Melodic = the lineal motion, often sharpening leading notes for effect.

I play violin where the higher frequencies are easier to intonate, no experience with fretless bass. While potentially more forgiving I suspect also harder to get bang on. Part of what you need is good basic hand shape(s) and that automatic instinct to lean up or relax back as you hear notes and micro adjust.

As a matter of interest I also play bagpipes where drones are harmonically tuned for max overtones, and each of the chanter notes can be "set" for perfect Pythagorean interval ratios. But if you do that then the lineal melodies can sound off, especially if non pentatonic in character. No.piping jokes please. It's an instrument that's easy to play badly, which is a threshold many enthusiasts achieve...

 

[Michael F Clef]

Interesting conversation Sir. I love when an occasion calls for me reaching on the shelf and thumbing through my 6,000 page, 75 year old edition of Webster's Unabridged Dictionary. To summarize a bit of the half page definition of each of the words: Just: "Suitable; Exact; Precise; Accurate." Pure: "free from harshness; clear; smooth. Perfect mathematically, as of intervals, intonation, harmony; - opposed to tempered."
Whatever you choose, I am looking forward to it, as your tutorials have always been of great value to me. Thank you.

 

[Bruce Calin]

You're getting into a maddening and fascinating study, Chris. Even describing these different tunings and concepts can be tricky, as I have discovered with students over the years. For what it's worth, I go with "Just " tuning as a name. The studies I've seen use this term. Since it does describe a particular physical thing that can be demonstrated and has been used that way it keeps things consistent IMO.

 

[TomB]

I was a full-time pro bassist (bass guitar and upright) for about 18 years. Most of my peers had Bachelors and Masters degrees. Some had completed their Doctorate. I don't ever remember hearing the term "pure intonation." If I did hear it, it was not often.

I did a Google search of "pure intonation and the top returns were on "just intonation." I.E. pure intonation is another term for just intonation. If the goal is to teach others, I suggest using the more common term .

I’m not so highly trained but will agree that “just” is the term I’ve encountered. If “Pure” has some nuances that vary, then cool, please elaborate. Otherwise, “just” seems pretty well established. Still, whatever you decide will be welcome - fascinating topic we deal with daily.

 

[J R Knots]

I don’t care which term is used but I am really looking forward to your presentation.

I have personally benefited from your other videos.

Lots of great information…highly appreciated.

Thank you Chris.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Have been under the weather today, but still reading and thanks for the replies. The feedback is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for. The consensus is clear about the use of the term “Just”. I will stick with that for the first video and probably the second. What has come into focus is that the term “Pure” is better used where it can be defined as a specific concept with a specific meaning. I think it might be best used to describe the situational/contextual intonation concepts to be discussed in the 3rd video. It the meantime, the food for thought has been extremely helpful, and thanks for helping me think out loud!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Singing harmonies with a guitarist (which I've just come back to a bit, after a few years away), I have never analyzed how I tune my vocals vs how i tune my bass notes. I probably should... Punch Brothers are a continually evolving inspiration, and from bluegrass to barbershop to baroque, they always sound "better" than I would expect equal tempered chords to sound, with or without their instruments.

This is a fantastic point. Two of the relatively recent times I have had my mind blown regarding intonation in live concerts involved bluegrass or bluegrass adjacent ensembles. The first was in 2003 at the Palace here in town, the night that Alison Krauss and Union Station recorded their “Live” CD. My wife begged me to take her to that concert. She had been playing their CD’s around the house a lot, and the intonation was spectacular. But somewhere inside me, I was thinking “studio magic”…until I heard them live. It was absolutely nails. No gimmicks, no tricks. I was there, and there was no way to fake that.

Several times in the show, during short a capella breaks, I had the feeling that the intonation was different, much like that of the Bach recording that @garrett2 posted above. Somehow more pure, without beating of any kind. It still blows my mind how those guys sing like that, without vibrato. But when the instruments kicked in, they immediately were in tune with those as well, as if their intuitions immediately shifted from Just to Equal temperament and locked it down with what was happening.

Then later, I saw Punch Brothers live for the first time in a beautiful outdoor venue in town during their tour for the Phosphorescent Blues album. It was probably 2017. I thought there was no way they were going to be able to pull that off live, but like with Union Station, they were absolutely nails. There’s a place in the first tune, Familiarity, where the instruments drop out and there’s this Beach Boys-esqe a capella section where they are singing the lyrics “We come together over we know not what”. Again, that little section was pure, just, and when the instruments came back in, they were pure with that. Just fantastic. I think that’s what I want to get at with the term “Pure”.

 

[Don Kasper]

@Chris Fitzgerald
Are you planning on having a section or discussion (with examples) of singing while playing?
For example -
: sing a drone G (any octave will do), while playing (arco) a Gmajor scale up& down the G string.
: sing along (in unison) with the arco G scale.
: sing a G scale in 3rds (ascending and descending) starting on the B, while you play (arco) the G scale starting from G, ascending and then descending - creating the diatonic 3rds/(or 10ths) in the scale.
:sing a descending G scale while playing (arco) an ascending G scale, and vice versa.
:sing a G scale (ascending and descending) while playing (arco) a drone (open) G string.
(You get the idea...)
I have done these types of vocal + bass intonation exercises and find them very helpful (it ain't always pretty!) in converting abstract/theoretical, mathematical, tuning concepts & words into audible visceral (gut wrenching?) experiences.
If you dare me to post audio examples, I might take you up on it! YOLO,
Thanks for your time.

 

[Ryan in PDX]

This is a fantastic point. Two of the relatively recent times I have had my mind blown regarding intonation in live concerts involved bluegrass or bluegrass adjacent ensembles. The first was in 2003 at the Palace here in town, the night that Alison Krauss and Union Station recorded their “Live” CD. My wife begged me to take her to that concert. She had been playing their CD’s around the house a lot, and the intonation was spectacular. But somewhere inside me, I was thinking “studio magic”…until I heard them live. It was absolutely nails. No gimmicks, no tricks. I was there, and there was no way to fake that.

Several times in the show, during short a capella breaks, I had the feeling that the intonation was different, much like that of the Bach recording that @garrett2 posted above. Somehow more pure, without beating of any kind. It still blows my mind how those guys sing like that, without vibrato. But when the instruments kicked in, they immediately were in tune with those as well, as if their intuitions immediately shifted from Just to Equal temperament and locked it down with what was happening.

Then later, I saw Punch Brothers live for the first time in a beautiful outdoor venue in town during their tour for the Phosphorescent Blues album. It was probably 2017. I thought there was no way they were going to be able to pull that off live, but like with Union Station, they were absolutely nails. There’s a place in the first tune, Familiarity, where the instruments drop out and there’s this Beach Boys-esqe a capella section where they are singing the lyrics “We come together over we know not what”. Again, that little section was pure, just, and when the instruments came back in, they were pure with that. Just fantastic. I think that’s what I want to get at with the term “Pure”.

At the risk of veering off topic - I saw them on the All Ashore tour at an outdoor venue, and at 9:50pm they told us they had a noise curfew in ten minutes, so we'd only get one more... it was 'Familiarity,' naturally. Just disgusting how good it was, and everyone went home on another planet that night.

I feel that this is the pitch equivalent of learning to play ahead of/on top of/behind the beat.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

@Don Kasper I won’t be doing any of that in the videos, but singing is a regular part of all studio work I do with my students. As amazing as Esperanza S and Alison K and a few others are when they sing and play at the same time, I’ve found that for most mortals, the multitasking aspect of trying to intonate two instruments at the same time tends to be a distraction to at least one of them. Even Alison almost always seems to alternate them, but I guess that’s understandable as it would be hard to sing with a fiddle jammed up under your jaw.

But if you would like to share sound samples, don’t let me stop you!

 

[Don Hergert]

Perhaps outside of the genre you have in mind, but if you want a good country/bluegrass example of singing and playing DB at the same time, check out Edgar Laudermilk and his band. Edgar is the double bassist, lead vocalist and front man for this band, and does quite a remarkable job.

 

[SteveCS]

singing and playing DB

Which everyone knows is impossible, right?

 

[garrett2]

@Don Kasper I won’t be doing any of that in the videos, but singing is a regular part of all studio work I do with my students. As amazing as Esperanza S and Alison K and a few others are when they sing and play at the same time, I’ve found that for most mortals, the multitasking aspect of trying to intonate two instruments at the same time tends to be a distraction to at least one of them. Even Alison almost always seems to alternate them, but I guess that’s understandable as it would be hard to sing with a fiddle jammed up under your jaw.

But if you would like to share sound samples, don’t let me stop you!

Katie Thiroux has exercises where she sings a transcribed instrumental line, like a Ben Webster solo, while walking.