Double Bass Intonation

[Huy Nguyen]

Update on my intonation misadventures....

TL;DR: The biggest factor affecting my ability to intonate I realize is the need to hear the mids on my bass. It comes easier when you're playing an acoustic instrument that has a lot of growl for pizz. I'm eq'ing differently so I can intonate better.

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Long version:

So I'm feeling more comfortable with my intonation. Will never be perfect but I think I possibly was driving myself crazy and wasn't all that terrible to begin with. First of all, I'm using a lot more double stop practice but also audiation is very helpful in this. Links below.

I firstly followed this guy and I like his approach where he doesn't rely so much on vomit exercises. Granted in 5ths tuning I have the advantage to borrow from a little bit of this.... specifically just about the first couple exercises for major and minor chords using the D open string but it gave me the ammo to take it across the fingerboard. Gave me a sense of physical location of the notes without having to rely on hand positions.



Secondly (and more importantly) I followed one of Molly Gebrian's videos series on intonation for stringed instruments.
(first of 4)

Of which she suggested using the InTune app (InTune – Improve Tuning and Practice Intonation) to train the ear to identify things slightly sharp or slightly flat. I found I have a problem hearing things slightly flat. Sharp notes come easier. In using the app, the app recommends this guy with a defunct link: Kevin Ure (https://www.youtube.com/@UreMusic). Everything in the past on this forum we call "pitch expectation" is done through what he terms audiation. To hear a tone internally (without singing it!) and play the note to match that internal pitch. I think his channel is quite insightful and worthy checking out. I'm finding lots of benefit.

Still, going back to recording myself and listening to the output, it's still inconsistent. It's better with intonation and audiation practice but I was remarking how something sounded in tune to me was still out of tune. Then I checked out the EQ settings I have for my bass. They're sit with mids and treble turned way down bc I like how it sounds when it comes out of the speaker. When recorded using Reaper direct to my DAW device, it sounds out of tune and one dimension. I found that if I add a mic (condenser in my case) and close mic it in a separate channel, my intonation the way I hear it is back. I even A/B'ed recording myself listening to the pickup channel only with and w/o the higher frequencies from the mic and there's a tangible difference. I intonate much better if there are lots of mids present. More than how I "perceive" to like my sound - which tends to lean darker. Again, even when I solo the pickup channel when the original recording had a mic, even the solo'ed pickup channel is more in tune.

So now going with recording a solo channel with just the pickup but with the mids turned way up into the 3 o'clock region, my intonation is more consistent and better.

This should be no surprise. We all know that hearing the lower frequencies takes literal time for it to blossom and higher frequencies are heard easier. It's making me rethink my sound what what I need out of my sound to have an easier time intonating.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Just thought I'd add since it's been a few months.... I've been doing Kevin Ure's program on YT for a solid month now. What we've called "pitch expectation" on this forum he calls "Audiation". His program is really good... I'm about a 18 sessions into it and it's about getting really intimate with each pitch and not just picking it out clearly out of a chord, but also fixed solfege singing and a very organic way to hear the character of each pitch to the point of being able to identify it. I dont' I'll get to perfect pitch but I can come close. Much of it is being able to hold a pitch in one's mental ear and hear how it rings against another interval.

When I combine it with just simply arpeggiating a chord tone across one single string (like D major on the D string) while interleaving it a lot with the open strings... this does alot for muscle memory. I prefer it to vomit exercises. The Daniel Kurganov vid helps with giving a sort of example where you keep hitting the note until it sounds in tune with the chord and bouncing around so the chord can be arp'ed and heard. Once I have it down in D major, then move to different arps that can include other strings but with D as one of the chord tones(G major, Bb major, etc)) followed by scales inteleaved with the open string. They key for me was to be able to sense the physical distance of the octave and then the major third and perfect 5th in a physical way. Then kinda memorizing that as a embodied felt sense. Matching this with the audiation seems to yield some consistency that I haven't gotten before. But the audiation is critical to be able to expect that pitch.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I'm 2 months into Kevin Ure's Flawless Ear program, bought lots of books and videos on intonation (Lauren Pierce, Cellomind, etc), and attempted to work on this consistently - has eaten up most of my practice time most days. Still listening to hours and hours of content about intonation on various instruments. I find that it does really bother me and having an well-intonated note is part of a good sound and not separate. I'm largely "satisfied" with my ability to create notes, now it's really bad intonation that is taking my attention away from the joy being created.

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It dawned on me earlier today that intonation is a very subjective thing, possibly?
The whole thing about Just Intonation.... you intonate based on the tonality that's in context around you - automatically subjective. While Well-Tempered is the closest we'll get to absolute intonation, and we talk about Audiation (aka pitch expectation) it starts to become subjective bc it's part of how we want to express ourselves using intonation as another medium of expression (yes I've been watching a lot of cello intonation vids).

After listening to one of Double Bass Conversations with Daniel Chiva Sanz, and that I'm primarily a jazz player, I've decided to just start playing and practicing against a piano sound/keyboard bc that is what will be in my live environment when I perform. It seems to me that as a jazz player, this is the only way. Practice what you perform, right? When I combine that with some of Ure's techniques to audiate a note, suddenly I feel a bit more confident about my pitch and the odds of being just a few cents off have gone way up.

I still have a problem with pitch discernment when it's just a little bit off. Sometimes something sharp will sound flat. I know this through using an app called InTune (iOS). Apparently the research behind it according ot Molly Gebrian (who I kinda like but have issues with the sources - or lack thereof) that pitch discernment can be trained even at a later age. It might end up being a little bit of a double edged sword as now I can hear other players/recordings and sense their lack of intonation.

Anwyays, after watching a Kevin Ure video on Audiation and internalizing pitch, it makes me think this is eeriely similar to rhythm and timefeel. It can't exactly be taught (approximation might be the best description) but the key is to get the feeling of being in the "intonation pocket". Getting the pythagorean intonation right isn't enough, you have to adjust to the chord you're sitting in - esp with improvsed music. In essence, we have to build our own internal pitch anchor even if it's mostly about relative pitch. I'm using the piano to not only audiate the chordal harmony by which I can situate an relatively well intonated bass note, but also using a digital tuner to give me feedback on how closely the note is well-tempered - so that I can decide to use what's coming out of my instrument as a new internal model of what an intonated bass note should sound like. It might sound crazy but I think that's the biggest problem we face as bassists, to hear a proper "intonated" note and to internalize that when the instrument is so hard to get it exactly right - when there's no such thing as exact. All in the pursuit to generate an internall pitch to expect.



This is slightly a different viewpoint but found it a good listen.



Btw:I love Kevin's approach to rhythm as well. That rhythm is audiated. It's buried in one of his other videos that would take me time to find (he has SOOO many)

 

[SteveCS]

The whole thing about Just Intonation.... you intonate based on the tonality that's in context around you - automatically subjective. While Well-Tempered is the closest we'll get to absolute intonation, and we talk about Audiation (aka pitch expectation) it starts to become subjective bc it's part of how we want to express ourselves using intonation as another medium of expression (yes I've been watching a lot of cello intonation vids).

On balance I might argue the other way. I think of Just intonation as absolute because it is derived from the harmonic series which is a natural phenomenon rooted in physics. You know you are intonated because all the other notes come alive, and the harmony is bigger than the sum of parts. Of course this plays to your agrument of 'the context around you', but that is only subjective with respect to a non-existent reference pitch. Internally and within the boundary of the context, just intonation is, IMHO, absolute.

Equal temperament, as demonstrated in 'The Well-Tempered Clavier", is a compromise that is "close enough for ministry work!" Without the support of natural cues, it has to be subjective. On the other hand, all notes are the exact same pitch in all keys, which might be seen as making things more objective.

Audiation* is indeed subjective, and not only for the reasons you mention. Yes there is expectation, but there is also personal tolerance. The more out-of-tuneness you can tolerate the lower your compulsion to intonate properly, which invariably leads to insecure or inconsistent intonation. Tolerance can be improved with training, but that requires judgement, which is by definition subjective. An equal-tempered major 3rd doesn't have the purity of a just major 3rd, but is still recognisable as one, thanks to our tolerance.

*I was taught, and performed, Prima Vista for many years: audiation is a major part of the process, but it wasn't called audiation back then!

 

[bassmanbrent]

It dawned on me earlier today that intonation is a very subjective thing, possibly?

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't piano tuners start with a reference pitch to get an instrument to 440 and then do the rest by ear? If so then I'd agree that intonation (and equal temperament) is subjective. I've also been told that when an orchestra plays without a fixed pitch instrument (piano, harp etc.) that the pitch can drift and the entire ensemble can go below or above standard pitch for periods. Is that a sign that intonation is subjective, or just that musicians are human beings and not perfect? I'm not sure myself.

 

[garrett2]

The natural harmonic series is not subjective. Just intonation as I understand it is trying to maximize the natural harmonic series. It works best with instruments and instrumental groupings with variable pitch -- string quartets. Pianos ruin everything because they need to maximize all the internal intervals but with fixed tuning.

 

[evanrunyon]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't piano tuners start with a reference pitch to get an instrument to 440 and then do the rest by ear? If so then I'd agree that intonation (and equal temperament) is subjective. I've also been told that when an orchestra plays without a fixed pitch instrument (piano, harp etc.) that the pitch can drift and the entire ensemble can go below or above standard pitch for periods. Is that a sign that intonation is subjective, or just that musicians are human beings and not perfect? I'm not sure myself.

Intonation, as a word, technically describes a framework and/or process; whether or not something is in tune is, indeed, subject to your own personal perspective and tolerances.

A 16th century organ tuned to, like, sixth-comma meantone at A415 might sound out of tune to modern ears, but totally fine to someone used to it.

 

[Bruce Calin]

I recently played two gigs within two days of each other. One was outdoors playing (unlined) fretless BG with drums, horns, and electric keys. The other was a demonstration of jazz playing for a class with just DB and grand piano. How my perception of "in tune" was different on these gigs was a real ear opener. I'm pretty much of the "make it sound good" school and so try to be aware mostly of what adjustments I need to make in intonation to at least have the structure sound reasonably in tune as a whole. The overtones of the different keyboards, the horns, the different instruments I was attempting to play in tune to my ear, and the different environments made for an interesting challenge in both situations. Others may differ, but IMO flexibility has to be an essential element of any concept of "correct" intonation. Theory is great, and needs to be understood, but in performance adjustments are just as important, if not more so. It has to sound good.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I recently played two gigs within two days of each other. One was outdoors playing (unlined) fretless BG with drums, horns, and electric keys. The other was a demonstration of jazz playing for a class with just DB and grand piano. How my perception of "in tune" was different on these gigs was a real ear opener. I'm pretty much of the "make it sound good" school and so try to be aware mostly of what adjustments I need to make in intonation to at least have the structure sound reasonably in tune as a whole. The overtones of the different keyboards, the horns, the different instruments I was attempting to play in tune to my ear, and the different environments made for an interesting challenge in both situations. Others may differ, but IMO flexibility has to be an essential element of any concept of "correct" intonation. Theory is great, and needs to be understood, but in performance adjustments are just as important, if not more so. It has to sound good.

Yeah similar to all the cellists I’ve been following. Many will purposely play sharp to make it sound more in tune and “better”. To the point that one of the authors of Cellomind that one should err on the sharp side of things. As some of the DB side of things go to, we tend to play on the flat side of things. And then other times it is an intentional choice as part of self expression.

 

[Bruce Calin]

Yeah similar to all the cellists I’ve been following. Many will purposely play sharp to make it sound more in tune and “better”. To the point that one of the authors of Cellomind that one should err on the sharp side of things. As some of the DB side of things go to, we tend to play on the flat side of things. And then other times it is an intentional choice as part of self expression.

I can't say that it's consistently sharp or flat that I'm hearing. It seems to depend on what else is going on. My priorities in orchestra playing are different from when I'm playing in a jazz setting. I'm principal in one orchestra I play in and in the section in another and that also affects how I perceive and try to match pitch. I'm also less concerned about intonation in jazz playing in general since that's less of a priority IMO. I always want to play in tune but not at the expense of other considerations. My main reason for my post was to describe how even the sound of other instruments and situations affect how I, at least, perceive pitch.