Inversions again...

[TheSlug]

Me and my guitarist is struggling to get the inversions to sound good.
2nd inversion in a triad is the worst.
E.G: He plays an Fmaj triad. I play his 3rd, an A, and it sounds dissonant, like I'm playing the wrong note. He is utilizing the CAGED system quite effectively, and most of the time plays without the two bottom strings. If I'm just passing through, it sound melodically, but if I'm holding the 3rd all the way through, it sounds "wrong."
Anyone who knows how we can make it sound good?

 

[Mushroo]

It's all about harmonic context. Try sandwiching the F/A chord in between Bbmaj and Gmin (for example).

Also, is your guitarist using a heavy distortion effect? If so, he might want to omit the A from his chord voicing and just play an F5 power chord (notes F and C).

 

[SteveCS]

If your A is the lowest note in the arrangement you have first inversion, not 2nd. You need C in the bass, ie lowest pitch of all voices in the arrangement, for second inversion. Or play your A up an octave...

 

[Schlyder]

Your low A is changing the harmony. From Fmaj to Fmajor/A

 

[TheSlug]

It's all about harmonic context. Try sandwiching the F/A chord in between Bbmaj and Gmin (for example).

Also, is your guitarist using a heavy distortion effect? If so, he might want to omit the A from his chord voicing and just play an F5 power chord (notes F and C).

That is where we had it happened the most. Listen to the little "thing" between chorus and verse in Ed Sheerans "Perfect" as an example. Goes from Ab - Eb/G to Fm. We can't make it sound like that.
He is not using a lot of distortion BTW.

 

[TheSlug]

If your A is tbe lowest note in tbe arrangement you have first inversion, not 2nd. You need C in the bass, ie lowest pitch of all voices in the arrangement, for second inversion. Or play your A up an octave...

sounds to me like you're talking about an Am chord here. I'm talking about an Fmaj.
A 2nd inversion is when you play the 3rd of the chord played as the lowest note in the arrangment. If he plays an F major chord, the 3rd of the chord is an A. Since I am the lowest instrument, I play the A.
My problem is that it sounds too dissonant.

 

[TheSlug]

Your low A is changing the harmony. From Fmaj to Fmajor/A

But if I play it on a piano, it sound pretty much like an Fmajor. Has it to do with it two different instruments playing?

 

[joebar]

But if I play it on a piano, it sound pretty much like an Fmajor. Has it to do with it two different instruments playing?

if it doesn't sound right, it isn't right.
your ears will tell you when it is.
he must be playing an off note somewhere.

 

[TheSlug]

if it doesn't sound right, it isn't right.
your ears will tell you when it is.
he must be playing an off note somewhere.

If it was that simple...

 

[joebar]

If it was that simple...

its hard to gauge if we can't hear the example.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

One or both of you should intonate your instrument(s). And tune them, of course. Still, it can sound interesting. The 3rd is the tone with the biggest difference between just and equal tempered tuning. Your instruments use equal, the overtones are just. There will be a crash between the tones played and the other instruments overtones. Enough to be noticeable if you have very good ears. (And if either of you bend slightly, you may add to the problem).

 

[Mushroo]

But if I play it on a piano, it sound pretty much like an Fmajor. Has it to do with it two different instruments playing?

How does it sound when you play the chord on piano and he plays it on guitar?

How does it sound when both of you play a regular (non inverted) F chord together?

I'm leaning towards either he is playing the wrong notes, or his guitar is out of tune or poorly intonated.

 

[mrcbass]

I personally don't find the 3rd in the root to be pleasing. As a passing tone or walk, of course, but as a note that is being held, it just doesn't fit my ear. A few of our original progressive jazz arrangements have me doing that and I fight I every time. I always lose so "OK, your song, your call", but It just doesn't sound right.

 

[SteveCS]

sounds to me like you're talking about an Am chord here. I'm talking about an Fmaj.
A 2nd inversion is when you play the 3rd of the chord played as the lowest note in the arrangment. If he plays an F major chord, the 3rd of the chord is an A. Since I am the lowest instrument, I play the A.
My problem is that it sounds too dissonant.

No. First inversion is third in the bass, in the case of F major that would be A. 2nd inversion is 5th in the bass, which in the case of F major that would be C.

 

[TheSlug]

I personally don't find the 3rd in the root to be pleasing. As a passing tone or walk, of course, but as a note that is being held, it just doesn't fit my ear. A few of our original progressive jazz arrangements have me doing that and I fight I every time. I always lose so "OK, your song, your call", but It just doesn't sound right.

This is where I'm at right now. Maybe this is my answer

 

[TheSlug]

No. First inversion is third in the bass, in the case of F major that would be A. 2nd inversion is 5th in the bass, which in the case of F major that would be C.

Yes. 1st Inversions are still inversions. I had my head up my a**. Was thinking of the 1st as the "regular" way of playing it. Sorry.
What did you mean about playing my A an octave up?

 

[SteveCS]

Yes. 1st Inversions are still inversions. I had my head up my a**. Was thinking of the 1st as the "regular" way of playing it. Sorry.
What did you mean about playing my A an octave up?

Just that if you are playing the A of the chord and the chord needs to be in 2nd inversion, then you need your A above the bass note of C.
If by 'regular', you mean R-3-5, that's called Root Position.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

That's a good answer.

P.S. You have just changed your photo/avatar from playing the BASS GUITAR to playing the Double Bass...

Thank you! Yes, I play much more DB now, so I thought it was time for a change.

 

[honeyiscool]

A lot of times, unless you do it in passing, the brain tends to take the A-C-F and hear it as an A minor with a flat 6th rather than the first inversion of F major. This can throw things out of whack.

One or both of you should intonate your instrument(s). And tune them, of course. Still, it can sound interesting. The 3rd is the tone with the biggest difference between just and equal tempered tuning. Your instruments use equal, the overtones are just. There will be a crash between the tones played and the other instruments overtones. Enough to be noticeable if you have very good ears. (And if either of you bend slightly, you may add to the problem).

Yep, in a well tempered scale, a major third is about .79% sharp compared to the platonic 5/4 ideal, so given that fretted bass guitars can't produce vibrato in both directions, when you're holding a major third, your brain might find it just a bit dissonant. Just enough to produce upsetting overtones.

 

[InhumanResource]

The interval it distance between the notes you and the guitarist are playing matters as well. The closer they are, the more of any dissonance you will hear.

Usually this is done to achieve some other compositional goal, like maintain independent melodic lines in your voice leading. Not just for the sake of having one. Is there a reason you are trying to add an inversion?