Inversions again...

[megafiddle]

That is where we had it happened the most. Listen to the little "thing" between chorus and verse in Ed Sheerans "Perfect" as an example. Goes from Ab - Eb/G to Fm. We can't make it sound like that.
He is not using a lot of distortion BTW.

Compositionally, that would seem to work fine.

Is it possible to play the inversion in isolation from the rest of the song?

You might try detuning the 3rd in the bass (tune it to the guitar chord) just to see if it's the dissonance due to equal temperment.

If your tone is bright with strong overtones, moving your tone towards more fundamental should help also if it's just a dissonance problem.

-

 

[Two-Spirit]

Me and my guitarist is struggling to get the inversions to sound good.
2nd inversion in a triad is the worst.
E.G: He plays an Fmaj triad. I play his 3rd, an A, and it sounds dissonant, like I'm playing the wrong note. He is utilizing the CAGED system quite effectively, and most of the time plays without the two bottom strings. If I'm just passing through, it sound melodically, but if I'm holding the 3rd all the way through, it sounds "wrong."

Anyone who knows how we can make it sound good?

 

[Two-Spirit]

Intervals sound dissonant because they are complicated ratios, intervals are consonant because the ratios are simple and you brain can deal with the ratios better. If you're going to play chord tones maybe you should try a higher octave closer to the chord. Octaves and fifths sound good because they are the simplest ratios, 1\2 and 2\3 respectively. If the bass note is lower its harder for your brain to make the connection.

 

[inanimate_carb]

Lots of weird science in this thread over a simple harmonic move. There's no genius songwriting going on that requires instruments set to just intonation or the wearing of special hats or harnesses.


The brief interlude that the OP refers to in the Sheeran tune is a short G D/F# Emi D C D progression. The OP has it listed as a half step higher, but it's a very standard progression. If this progression is played properly, it's done in about 4 million churches every Sunday.

 

[Daniel Piper]

Let's be honest, Sometimes inversions sound like crap anyways.

 

[JimmyM]

Let's be honest, Sometimes inversions sound like crap anyways.

I find that a regular F7 works better when the bass is playing an A. There are circumstances where it can work with an Fmaj7, but you really have to pick your spots.

You're finding out why a lot of bassists stick with root notes, BTW. They might try to work other notes into the progression, but a lot of times they lead with the root note because it works.

 

[megafiddle]

Lots of weird science in this thread over a simple harmonic move. There's no genius songwriting going on that requires instruments set to just intonation or the wearing of special hats or harnesses.


The brief interlude that the OP refers to in the Sheeran tune is a short G D/F# Emi D C D progression. The OP has it listed as a half step higher, but it's a very standard progression. If this progression is played properly, it's done in about 4 million churches every Sunday.

If you are referring to dissonance, it's not weird science. Equal temperment is dissonant by nature.

Whether it's a noticable problem or not depends on the timbre of the instruments. Brass sections, for example, cannot tune to equal temperment.

The problem here may possibly be due to the timbre of the bass, i.e, the frequency of its overtones in equal temperment.

-

 

[joebar]

Jimmy is right about the F7/Fmaj concept-
The A works better in the F7 scenario; especially if the vamp were a Cmin/F7 type of progression.

 

[dreamadream99]

Isolated and alone, no inversion sounds quite right. It is only in the context of a proper progression that it works.

Try playing these with your guitarist:
F F/A Bb C7
// // | // //

F C/E Dm7 Bb F/C C7 F
// // | // // | // // | ////

 

[DavC]

rearrange some notes until gtr finds the right chord voicing ...

Fmaj7 ( F A C E ) w/A bass ... might sound like Am with a wrong note ..? depends on how long you're on it and where it's going .. ?? a short moment - clusters can be cool ... to hang on the chord i'd spread things out - less dissonance ..

 

[SLO Surfer]

what exactly is your guitarist playing and what octave A are you playing?

 

[Don Kasper]

In the example below, the bass plays an A, while the guitar plays a voicing (there are 2 examples) that does NOT contain an "A". It does, however, contain a "G" natural (sometimes called the "add 2" or the "add 9"), as well as an F and a C.
There is a long and well documented theory/history and study of this type of voice leading - way too complicated (and too far in my past!) to explore here.
Have your guitarist play ONLY these notes in the approximate register in the example below - G, C, F. Any combination will sound good - stacked 4ths (the first ex. below), or a closer "cluster" (C,F,G), while you (the bass) plays a low A - don't play too high or you'll lose the harmonic "gravity" of your note.
Try to get to a piano (or a 6-string bass!) to play and hear this beautiful sound.
Thanks.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

It's all about harmonic context. Try sandwiching the F/A chord in between Bbmaj and Gmin (for example).

Also, is your guitarist using a heavy distortion effect? If so, he might want to omit the A from his chord voicing and just play an F5 power chord (notes F and C).

Regarding inversions, the first inversion uses the third of the chord as the lowest note followed by the 5th and then the octave of the tonic. The second inversion uses the 5th of the chord as the lowest note, followed by the tonic and then the 3rd. They are very handy for keyboardist to use because they can change chords quickly without a lot of re-positioning of their hands. For instance in "Light My Fire" it's easy to play the Am chord in the root position and then leave the thumb on the A and just shifting your other fingers to the C#, E#. and F# playing the first inversion of the F#m7 chord. Much easier to play it like that than to move your entire hand over ~6" to get the tonic of the F#m7 under your thumb.

If it was that simple...

It actually is that simple because the wrong notes will sound like wrong notes regardless of who is playing them. The real problem is getting past the ego that says, "I'm playing this right, you must be hitting a wrong note." If you can do it without pissing him off, ask him to show you the notes he's playing at that spot and to tell you what those notes are. If you can read his fretboard, see if he's actually playing the notes he thinks he's playing...odds are he's not.

I've had more than one guitar player tell me he was playing one chord while he was actually playing a different one. And I had a drummer that would complain that I was not coming in at the right spot in a song. After three separate weekly rehearsals, he finally figure out that I wasn't coming in too soon - he was coming in late by adding a rest that wasn't supposed to be there before the chord change. He was a good guy though and a good drummer apologizing profusely for weeks afterwards. Other than that one time, he was a solid drummer.

 

[SteveCS]

Regarding inversions, the first inversion uses the third of the chord as the lowest note followed by the 5th and then the octave of the tonic. The second inversion uses the 5th of the chord as the lowest note, followed by the tonic and then the 3rd.
...

Yes and no. The inversion is defined only by the bass note. The arrangement of notes above the bass makes no difference to the type of inversion.
1st = 3rd in bass, 2nd = 5th in bass.
So, for G triad in closed root position...
Take the G and put it on top. 1st inversion. Take the D from the middle and jump it up an octave. Still 1st inversion.

 

[Bass'd on a true story]

I've messed around with this concept a lot in my own compositions with my band. It's really hard to make a third sound good as a root if you are just landing on it unashamedly. The fifth makes a much better root replacement for most types of music, and even that can feel a little unnatural if you aren't careful. Major and minor thirds are both fairly out of tune in equal temperament. It's a trade off that had to be made for our instruments to be relatively in tune in all 12 keys.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

In the example below, the bass plays an A, while the guitar plays a voicing (there are 2 examples) that does NOT contain an "A". It does, however, contain a "G" natural (sometimes called the "add 2" or the "add 9"), as well as an F and a C.
There is a long and well documented theory/history and study of this type of voice leading - way too complicated (and too far in my past!) to explore here.
Have your guitarist play ONLY these notes in the approximate register in the example below - G, C, F. Any combination will sound good - stacked 4ths (the first ex. below), or a closer "cluster" (C,F,G), while you (the bass) plays a low A - don't play too high or you'll lose the harmonic "gravity" of your note.
Try to get to a piano (or a 6-string bass!) to play and hear this beautiful sound.
Thanks.
View attachment 2968029

I can only reiterate my statement.
Dear beginner bass players, please take a simple Music Harmony course (a private teacher/composer/arranger would be better).
Don't be satisfied with some popular youtube bass players' courses on harmony.

 

[Thuddy Waters]

I find that a regular F7 works better when the bass is playing an A. There are circumstances where it can work with an Fmaj7, but you really have to pick your spots.

Why is that? What is the theory behind that?

 

[JimmyM]

Why is that? What is the theory behind that?

I don't know. I just know it seems to work better to play the 3rd with a regular I7 chord than Imaj7.

 

[TheSlug]

Thanks for all the answers. I sincerely apreciate it. I said to him I was going to ask a bassplayers forum until next rehearsal. We're going to go through the suggestions to see how we can make it work.

 

[TheSlug]

A year ago, the OP asked the forum a very similar question.
bass and guitar combining notes to get a chord?

I concider the questions to be different, but many people in that thread started to talk about inversions, hence this thread title.