Inversions...

[MichelD]

I'm gradually making progress playing/visualizing major/minor/pentatonic scales and the arpeggios. Granted, I'm most comfortable with the easy patterns (second finger on root for major etc), but I understand the value of other patterns and ultimately hope to have them down.

What I find very difficult is triad inversions. My thinking is very root-centric, so starting on a third or fifth is just unnatural for me, and nowhere near as automatic as starting on a root. Even the sound of an inverted triad is strange to me.

My question: how important is it to be able to automatically shoot out a triad inversion, as opposed to say thinking backwards from the root? So many bass lines start on the root, so when is this important? If it is important, any tips on learning it?

Michael

Yeah, that is my issue too. I have trained myself to always home in on the root for every chord. It would be good for me to practice inversions the same way I practice chord arpegios; working thorugh the cycle of fifths so that i cover all chords.

 

[SteveCS]

As some have correctly pointed out, the inversion of a given chord converts it into “another chord”. In a jazz environment, where the melody/improvisation “suggest” the chord already, inversions are ok everywhere, but in other styles (rock, reggae, etc) it could hurt the wanted repetitiveness expected by the groove, if inversions would be used constantly.

In these cases, I’d suggest playing the original sequence until the audience “gets it” and then, once a while go with an inversion to adorn the music the way you want. On these lines, chords can be “inverted” to any note in the scale. While 3rd and 5ths are the most common, given their close affinity to the root, sometimes a 6th (minor or major) and even a minor 7th (for example, playing Bb over a C major chord) would orchestrate the chord very well.

This is a good post, as such I think the points raised are worthy of further discussion.

Inversion is nothing more than the interchange of existing chord tones in the bass*. A C major chord has the notes C, E, G. Root position has C in the bass, 1st inversion = E in the bass, 2nd inversion = G in the bass. This process of inversion doesn't actually change the chord - it is still the same chord. The chord (harmony) is only changed when you start adding notes such as the 7th or 6th. But these are, at least in the first instance, extensions.

Of course if they are added in the bass, then new chords can be created. Which is where things start to get interesting. Taking the most familiar example that we all know and love (but that the OP may not have seen): take a C major chord and, keeping C in the bass, replace the 5th (G) with a diatonic major 6th (A). The chord is C6, right? Now put that A in the bass. Is it C6 in 2nd inversion? Or just plain old Am? As always, the answer is 'it depends'...

But for now the important thing to remember, given the ease with which inversions (or namse and therefore function/purpose) of chords can be manipulated by the bass note, is that as bringers of the bass we are, for the most part, responsible for what that note is, and therefore responsible for the overall harmony created by the group. Even before we get to complex arpeggio patterns and the left-hand skills needed to play them, when playing as part of an ensemble (group, band, call it what you like) we often have the power to create inversions and even new harmony just through single note selection. To that end, I think understanding the musical language and the power we hold as bass players to modify the harmony should take priority over just running the physical exercises. Taking the example above - if the rest of the band is playing a C major chord, and we, as the bass player, decide to plant a big fat A in the bass, suddenly the harmony is Am7, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Unless you have a stubborn Tuba player sat at the back!!

* By 'in the bass' I mean the lowest-pitched note in the chord, which may not always come from the bass guitar

 

[glocke1]

I'm gradually making progress playing/visualizing major/minor/pentatonic scales and the arpeggios. Granted, I'm most comfortable with the easy patterns (second finger on root for major etc), but I understand the value of other patterns and ultimately hope to have them down.

What I find very difficult is triad inversions. My thinking is very root-centric, so starting on a third or fifth is just unnatural for me, and nowhere near as automatic as starting on a root. Even the sound of an inverted triad is strange to me.

My question: how important is it to be able to automatically shoot out a triad inversion, as opposed to say thinking backwards from the root? So many bass lines start on the root, so when is this important? If it is important, any tips on learning it?

Michael

take a jazz tune like Autumn Leaves or All the things you are and do the following at a slow tempo (60 bpm to start).

1) Play the root of the chord only (one note per measure)
2) Play the third of the chord only (one note per measure),
repeat the above for each of the remaining chord tones.

Once you've gotten comfortable with that, start adding in another chord tone, for example:
1) play root on beat 1, play the third on beat 3
2) play the third on beat one, play the 5th on beat 3...
etc...

After you've gotten comfortable with that start filling in the gaps, so far example 2 you ultimately end up playing something like this:
3rd, 5th, 7th, root.

You can also just do this over the cycle of 5ths.

Also take your time and allow all of it to sink in. Sometimes it takes a week or two weeks or a month to get comfortable with a new idea or concept thats just the way it is. There are things that I've worked on that has taken me weeks or months to grasp fully but once you do get a good grasp on whatever it is, it sticks with you and becomes a basic tool in your toolbox of bass knowledge.

ETA: While doing this over the cycle of 5ths is practical, doing this exercise over a jazz tune with a simple melody will be far more enlightening in terms of understanding how chord tones are used to build melodies (and from that soloing) and getting a basic understanding of voice leading which will help you build better/more interesting bass lines.

 

[thewildest]

This is a good post, as such I think the points raised are worthy of further discussion.

Much more elegantly explained than my post; your analogy between chords and their inversions, along with the dual interpretation given to an inverted chord made me think of modes. Do modes exist? Or are just scales starting at one of the notes other than the tonic? (No intention to move the thread into that infinite loop, just mentioning the similarity between topics)

 

[Bonafide]

Things like inversions are not necessary skills. But every skill you learn gives you more options on how to approach bass lines.

You're welcome to disagree, but there are plenty of virtuosic people who can play circles around most of us "educated" people who know nothing about music theory. I didn't say he shouldn't learn it.....

I agree that 'knowing them' may not be a necessary skill, but the virtuosic players you refer do 'play' them. In a music context, band environment etc...inversions will come up as part the compositional process at some point in the natural development of the player. Some progressions by default, when using your ear only as a guide will bring out inversions. Any mature player or experienced player whether 'theory' educated or not will play inversions as part of that compositional process when it's appropriate.

To the OP, hearing inversions in context with other musicians or harmony/melody instruments helps them make sense. The fact you are asked to learn them and look at them is a great start.

 

[glocke1]

I agree that 'knowing them' may not be a necessary skill, but the virtuosic players you refer do 'play' them. In a music context, band environment etc...inversions will come up as part the compositional process at some point in the natural development of the player. Some progressions by default, when using your ear only as a guide will bring out inversions. Any mature player or experienced player whether 'theory' educated or not will play inversions as part of that compositional process when it's appropriate.

To the OP, hearing inversions in context with other musicians or harmony/melody instruments helps them make sense. The fact you are asked to learn them and look at them is a great start.

I'd say they are necessary, fundamental skill to understand. There are many rock and pop tunes that have chord changes that involve inversions, Billy Joels the Piano Man is one that comes to mind. That one sticks out to me as I was asked to play it on a gig a few years back. I learned the tune as recorded, showed up at the gig and the KB player was not playing the chords as inversions and was giving the dirty eyeball.

With regards to the virtuosic players, I'll bet any amount of money that they do know and understand them. The ones that are well rounded that is. Those guys also aren't really something to use as a gold standard either, often times they are niche players who do one genre of music very well but have problems branching out into other genres, or lack such a broad understanding of music that they think what they play in their chosen genre applies to everything (queue the local rock stars who are always telling me when it comes to jazz "it's jazz, you can play anything").

 

[Tom Kinter]

take a jazz tune like Autumn Leaves or All the things you are and do the following at a slow tempo (60 bpm to start).

1) Play the root of the chord only (one note per measure)
2) Play the third of the chord only (one note per measure),
repeat the above for each of the remaining chord tones.

Once you've gotten comfortable with that, start adding in another chord tone, for example:
1) play root on beat 1, play the third on beat 3
2) play the third on beat one, play the 5th on beat 3...
etc...

After you've gotten comfortable with that start filling in the gaps, so far example 2 you ultimately end up playing something like this:
3rd, 5th, 7th, root.

You can also just do this over the cycle of 5ths.

Also take your time and allow all of it to sink in. Sometimes it takes a week or two weeks or a month to get comfortable with a new idea or concept thats just the way it is. There are things that I've worked on that has taken me weeks or months to grasp fully but once you do get a good grasp on whatever it is, it sticks with you and becomes a basic tool in your toolbox of bass knowledge.

ETA: While doing this over the cycle of 5ths is practical, doing this exercise over a jazz tune with a simple melody will be far more enlightening in terms of understanding how chord tones are used to build melodies (and from that soloing) and getting a basic understanding of voice leading which will help you build better/more interesting bass lines.

Well said... I've done this exactly and with those two songs... works well with "Bluesette" too!

 

[The Bass Clef]

Playing chord tones other than the root on the downbeat can be difficult to make sound natural in many contexts. If you’re just following the guitar chords and randomly decide to play a C# when the guitar plays an A, it might not sound great. That could be because the sound just isn’t familiar to you yet, or it may just simply not sound great for that song. You’re still playing a chord tone, but when the bass isn’t playing the root note of the chord it does change the sound of the chord prog. and the music overall - sometimes in a good way, sometimes not. It’s often best to play inversions when it’s within the context of a bass melody. Inversions can also sound really nice within a descending/ascending bass line. An example would be if the guitar is playing the chords E (on beats 1 & 2) to G (on 3 & 4), then to C (1 2 3 4), you might play “EE DD CCCC”. The D notes would be a 2nd inversion of the G chord, and that might sound real nice being within this descending bass line.

A good rule of thumb is, it sounds smoother to make the smallest movements/intervals possible within a bass line (and that’s just good voice leading for all instruments in general). A bass line that moves in steps or half steps up or down (that still works with the chords via inversions) can sound more fluid and melodic than just bouncing from one root to the next root. Of course, you’ll need to decide what sounds the best for whatever song you’re playing.

Another way to think about inversions on bass is with walking jazz style lines. I remember being told back in college jazz band that it’ll sound amateur if you always just hit the root note and then walk up/down the chords from there to the next chord and repeat. It’ll usually sound smoother and more interesting if you walk your lines to the nearest chord tone of the next chord - whether that be the root or the 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc… So if I’m walking from an A7 to D7, instead of playing the arpeggios from the roots: A C# E G — D F# A C), it’ll probably sound more interesting to play: A C# E G — F# D C A… where G to F# is a half step movement and ends us being a 1st inversion (arpeggio) of the D chord… as opposed to that bigger interval jump of a 4th down between G and D like the root example. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Wasnex]

A good rule of thumb is, it sounds smoother to make the smallest movements/intervals possible within a bass line (and that’s just good voice leading for all instruments in general). A bass line that moves in steps or half steps up or down (that still works with the chords via inversions) can sound more fluid and melodic than just bouncing from one root to the next root. Of course, you’ll need to decide what sounds the best for whatever song you’re playing.

This is a standard rule in classical 4-part voice leading that applies generally to all voices except the bass, and of course the melody. The bass is normally expected to follow the root movement. In order for the bass to move to the nearest chord tone, it typically must play an inversion. And yes it can sound great, but it's not something you do continuously as it changes the mood and sense of motion created by the harmony in a way that is not necessarily intended by the composer. Also, it doesn't always sound great.

Of course, there are times and places where you can get away with playing inversions in the bass. In the following, a descending line is strongly implied by the harmony, and it can get boring to just sit on the root after you play through the form several times:

Depending on tempo and style, you might play a linear descending line (D, C#, C, B) over the top four bars...but keep in mind this makes a significant change to the way the chords sound and feel. (D = root, C# = Major 7th, C = minor 7th, B = Maj 6th. This line is really the only thing going on harmonically over those bars. There is a good chance that a guitarist or pianist play will spice it up a bit with different voicings and possibly alterations to the chords, and the notes you play will influence the notes they play.

Here is another tune that implies the same exact descending line:

Of course, in the C Real Book, "My Funny Valentine is in C minor:

So, the descending line would be: (C,B,Bb,A)

If the composer actually intends the bass to play inversions, they may use slash chords such A/C#. The top of the slash chord specifies the chord and quality, and the bottom specifies what the bass is expected to play. So A/C# is an A Major with a C# in the bass. So in this way, playing an inversion in the bass can be viewed as playing a different chord. Furthermore, consider D-6 (D,F,A,B) in our examples above played with the B in the bass (B,D,F,A): This spells out B-7b5.

There are lot's of other times in jazz were emphasizing an upper chord tone in the bass really does imply a different chord. Keep in mind jazz harmony tends to be complex and include lots of extensions and alterations, so changing the bass note can easily result in forming a new root position chord. In fact the chord may not even function as written.

 

[Bonafide]

Keep in mind jazz harmony tends to be complex and include lots of extensions and alterations, so changing the bass note can easily result in forming a new root position chord. In fact the chord may not even function as written.

 

[Papageno]

Root position chords provide the strongest expression of harmony. That's why they are used at harmonically important moments, such as beginning of phrases, cadences, etc. But using only root position chords makes the bass line quite choppy an not very melodic.

Using chord inversions enables the bass line to be much more linear and melodic. Chord inversions have been used for this purpose since (at least) J.S. Bach, and they are essential to jazz walking bass line.
So if you want your bass lines to sound musically interesting, you should practice chord inversions, and learn how to use them in you bass line.

The important point is to determine when to play root position and when to use inversions. Listen to your heroes, study transcriptions of their bass lines, and imitate them.

 

[The Bass Clef]

This is a standard rule in classical 4-part voice leading that applies generally to all voices except the bass, and of course the melody. The bass is normally expected to follow the root movement. In order for the bass to move to the nearest chord tone, it typically must play an inversion. And yes it can sound great, but it's not something you do continuously as it changes the mood and sense of motion created by the harmony in a way that is not necessarily intended by the composer. Also, it doesn't always sound great.

Of course, there are times and places where you can get away with playing inversions in the bass. In the following, a descending line is strongly implied by the harmony, and it can get boring to just sit on the root after you play through the form several times:

View attachment 4514005

Depending on tempo and style, you might play a linear descending line (D, C#, C, B) over the top four bars...but keep in mind this makes a significant change to the way the chords sound and feel. (D = root, C# = Major 7th, C = minor 7th, B = Maj 6th. This line is really the only thing going on harmonically over those bars. There is a good chance that a guitarist or pianist play will spice it up a bit with different voicings and possibly alterations to the chords, and the notes you play will influence the notes they play.

Here is another tune that implies the same exact descending line:
View attachment 4514008

Of course, in the C Real Book, "My Funny Valentine is in C minor:
View attachment 4514015
So, the descending line would be: (C,B,Bb,A)

If the composer actually intends the bass to play inversions, they may use slash chords such A/C#. The top of the slash chord specifies the chord and quality, and the bottom specifies what the bass is expected to play. So A/C# is an A Major with a C# in the bass. So in this way, playing an inversion in the bass can be viewed as playing a different chord. Furthermore, consider D-6 (D,F,A,B) in our examples above played with the B in the bass (B,D,F,A): This spells out B-7b5.

There are lot's of other times in jazz were emphasizing an upper chord tone in the bass really does imply a different chord. Keep in mind jazz harmony tends to be complex and include lots of extensions and alterations, so changing the bass note can easily result in forming a new root position chord. In fact the chord may not even function as written.

Yes, but we’re talking specifically about how to make inversions sound smooth in bass, not the execution of playing music overall (as it pertains to voice leading). Sure I agree bass typically sounds the best when it follows the root notes because the bass is the bass. But we’re discussing how to play inversions on the bass and making it sound great and interesting at the same time. Traditional voice leading practices are one of many ways that can make it happen. And I disagree about intentionally small intervallic motion being just a classical concept, and I disagree that it pertains to all voices except the bass. Tons of modern music uses traditional voice leading in all ranges, because it often just sounds good. The octave the notes are being played in doesn’t change the “rules” of what sound nice. Bass can (and often should) be a melody also, and at that point the melody can become even more important than the harmonic function of the bass… enter bass inversions and bass voice leading. All melody tends to flow smoother without large jumps (very generally speaking), whether it’s a soprano singer or a contra bass.

 

[mjnyc]

Taking the example above - if the rest of the band is playing a C major chord, and we, as the bass player, decide to plant a big fat A in the bass, suddenly the harmony is Am7, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Unless you have a stubborn Tuba player sat at the back!!

Really interesting. So a C major 6, which has the notes of an A minor 7 in it, is in itself a sort of hybrid of those two chords, and choosing the lowest note pushes it in one direction or the other.

 

[mjnyc]

… So if I’m walking from an A7 to D7, instead of playing the arpeggios from the roots: A C# E G — D F# A C), it’ll probably sound more interesting to play: A C# E G — F# D C A… where G to F# is a half step movement and ends us being a 1st inversion (arpeggio) of the D chord… as opposed to that bigger interval jump of a 4th down between G and D like the root example. Hope that makes sense.

Question: is F# D C A a first inversion of the D7 chord? Isn't this a "3 - 1 - 7 - 5". And isn't the first inversion "7 - 1 - 3 - 5" ? Not trying to be picky, just a little confused about terminology. Thanks.

Michael

 

[SteveCS]

Really interesting. So a C major 6, which has the notes of an A minor 7 in it, is in itself a sort of hybrid of those two chords, and choosing the lowest note pushes it in one direction or the other.

In a manner of speaking, yes.

Question: is F# D C A a first inversion of the D7 chord? Isn't this a "3 - 1 - 7 - 5". And isn't the first inversion "7 - 1 - 3 - 5" ? Not trying to be picky, just a little confused about terminology. Thanks.

Michael

The 3rd (F#) in the bass makes it 1st inversion. The order of notes above doesn't matter - it's still 1st inversion. 7th in the bass is 3rd inversion.

The mechanics are this. Take a chord in closed root position, i.e. 1, 3, 5, 7, etc... Take the lowest note and move it to the top - this leaves the 3rd at the bottom = 1st inversion. From 1st inversion, take the lowest note (3rd) and move it to the top - this leaves the 5th in the bass = 2nd inversion. And so on...

 

[mjnyc]

...The 3rd (F#) in the bass makes it 1st inversion...
...

Ah, thanks!

 

[Wasnex]

Yes, but we’re talking specifically about how to make inversions sound smooth in bass, not the execution of playing music overall (as it pertains to voice leading).

IMHO it's important for the OP to know how to play inversions well as when it is appropriate. IMHO OP iasked for advice on both

My question: how important is it to be able to automatically shoot out a triad inversion, as opposed to say thinking backwards from the root? So many bass lines start on the root, so when is this important? If it is important, any tips on learning it?

And I disagree about intentionally small intervallic motion being just a classical concept, and I disagree that it pertains to all voices except the bass, and I disagree that it pertains to all voices except the bass..

Nobody said using small intervallic motion was solely a classical concept. The examples I gave are definitely not classical. Different rules apply to bass vs upper voices. A keyboard player may use different inversions, but if the bass play the roots, the sound is still of a root position chord. So the bass should only infer an inversion when it is appropriate to do so.

When walking, I can start a measure on any chord tone, or even the 9th and make it sound good. But most people would not appreciate it if I started every measure like this. The general rule is play the root on 1 most of the time. To be honest I probably violate this rule more than some people care for, so it's matter of context and taste. Also most people think it's a good idea to learn the rules before you start breaking them.

Bass can (and often should) be a melody also, and at that point the melody can become even more important than the harmonic function of the bass… enter bass inversions and bass voice leading. All melody tends to flow smoother without large jumps (very generally speaking), whether it’s a soprano singer or a contra bass.

Totally agree. However jumps in melody are generally constrained to less than 1 octave, but not always. (This goes for bass lines as well). Definitely there are times when it's cool to play 10ths and 11ths in the bass line.

The octave the notes are being played in doesn’t change the “rules” of what sound nice.

Sorry but this is not 100% true. Playing close interval double stops or triads low on the bass is generally not going to sound great. Sometimes 4ths or 5th can sound nice, but again, you need to only play them when it's appropriate. I think 2nd inversion triads sound really nice on bass in certain ranges...but there are not really very many situations where I think it's appropriate to use them (at least in the styles of music I usually play).

 

[Wasnex]

Really interesting. So a C major 6, which has the notes of an A minor 7 in it, is in itself a sort of hybrid of those two chords, and choosing the lowest note pushes it in one direction or the other.

IMHO not really a hybrid. They often sub for each other, but they don't necessarily function or sound the same. In some instance it's not a choice to sub one for the other IMHO.

 

[mjnyc]

IMHO not really a hybrid. They often sub for each other, but they don't necessarily function or sound the same. In some instance it's not a choice to sub one for the other IMHO.

I understand. I just meant taken alone, completely out of context, the bass note pushes the same notes towards one chord or the other. Thanks.

 

[buldog5151bass]

I understand. I just meant taken alone, completely out of context, the bass note pushes the same notes towards one chord or the other. Thanks.

It's as much the tone you want. A major 6 chord has an entirely different feel than a minor 7. One is a lot darker than the other