Inversions...

[mrcbass]

As some have correctly pointed out, the inversion of a given chord converts it into “another chord”. In a jazz environment, where the melody/improvisation “suggest” the chord already, inversions are ok everywhere, but in other styles (rock, reggae, etc) it could hurt the wanted repetitiveness expected by the groove, if inversions would be used constantly.

In these cases, I’d suggest playing the original sequence until the audience “gets it” and then, once a while go with an inversion to adorn the music the way you want. On these lines, chords can be “inverted” to any note in the scale. While 3rd and 5ths are the most common, given their close affinity to the root, sometimes a 6th (minor or major) and even a minor 7th (for example, playing Bb over a C major chord) would orchestrate the chord very well.


I respectfully disagree; any musical concept around melody, harmony and rhythm, related to any instrument or style, will enrich a musician’s musical experience. If to stride to be better musicians would be someone’s ambition, I’d say that continuous learning is key to their development.

You're welcome to disagree, but there are plenty of virtuosic people who can play circles around most of us "educated" people who know nothing about music theory. I didn't say he shouldn't learn it - I agree with you that constant learning is huge in becoming a better player. But that doesn't necessarily make inversions important or critical. Theory is just a tool box to help us explore why music does what it does. The more tools you have access to, the more options one has to figuring things out. More understanding is better, but not required.

 

[iiipopes]

Things like inversions are not necessary skills. But every skill you learn gives you more options on how to approach bass lines.

I respectfully disagree. To make bass lines interesting and support the melody or solos in the chord progression, in my decades of experience, inversions are essential, if for nothing else, than to know what to fill in from one chord to the next.

 

[doran.dragic]

I consider the inversions important. I'd suggest you start by learning the shapes of all inversion using either 2 or 3 strings and try to establish a mental connection between a certain shape and a sound that it's going to give you. Sing the notes as you play them.

The next step would be to visualise your next root note and think where your next chord tone lies regarding to this root note. It could also be the same root note if you didn't change the position. Visualisation is very important in my opinion. Try to practice triads on single strings too so that you're moving horizontally a lot. Use the same visualisation technique.

 

[Wasnex]

I'm gradually making progress playing/visualizing major/minor/pentatonic scales and the arpeggios. Granted, I'm most comfortable with the easy patterns (second finger on root for major etc), but I understand the value of other patterns and ultimately hope to have them down.

What I find very difficult is triad inversions. My thinking is very root-centric, so starting on a third or fifth is just unnatural for me, and nowhere near as automatic as starting on a root. Even the sound of an inverted triad is strange to me.

My question: how important is it to be able to automatically shoot out a triad inversion, as opposed to say thinking backwards from the root? So many bass lines start on the root, so when is this important? If it is important, any tips on learning it?

Michael

It comes with time and practice. You can study music for the rest of your life, and in the end will only know a fraction of what there is to know (IMHO). Enjoy the journey.

I generally conceptualize all four notes of 7th chords simultaneously. I learned them in college theory classes, where I was required to play them on piano in different inversions, and also do class composition projects with four-part voice leading. Thinking about them one note at a time is sort of a bass centric thing, since bass usually only plays one note. IMHO learning a bit of piano is one of the best things you can do if you want to be a serious musician. Piano will help with both your grasp of theory and also with developing your ear.

I do think of chord extensions and alterations sort of like add-ons. But if I practice a compositions with these elements, I start to think of them in a more homogenous way. Actually, at this point the chord tones are so internalized, that I don't always need to think of them. So I am more free to think directly about the extensions and alterations.

When you first start developing walking bass lines you tend to think in root position. But as you get more advanced you can create more interesting lines if you can freely work in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd inversion. It's a matter of knowing the notes, where they are located on the instruments, as well as the box shapes required to play them.

As you get more developed you also start using non-chord tones. So at some point you will also probably want to practice modes a bit. Modes are sort of like scale in inversions. In other words it's the same exact notes, you just start at a different point in the scale. If you are in Major, then Ionion is 1, Dorian is 2, Phrygian is 3, Lydian is 4, Mixolydian is 5, Aeolian is 6, and Locrian is 7. The same modes are used for natural minor but 6 (Aeolian) becomes 1. (Aeolian is 1, Locrian is 2, Ionian is 3, Dorian is 4, Phrygian is 5, Lydian is 6, Mixolydian is 7)

The Harmonic and Jazz Melodic scales generate a set of altered modes with modified or new names. You need to be pretty advanced to really keep them in your head; and FYI I really can't, although I do review them from time to time.

There are some songs that are modal, but most of time, most people do not really think in modes. However, I think learning and practicing the modes is still a good idea because it teaches you different finger patterns that you will use as an advanced player. It also exposes you to new and useful sounds. If you know your modes, it's easier to play diatonic non-chord tones.

You might want to save these links for later:
MAJOR SCALE AND ITS MODES (labdoo.org)
HARMONIC MINOR SCALE AND ITS MODES (labdoo.org)
MELODIC MINOR SCALE AND ITS MODES (labdoo.org)

...or find your own links that are better .

If I have not made it clear: I view modes mentally as diatonic notes in a key center, the hand shapes that are used to play the notes, and also each mode has a certain sound. So learning the modes thoroughly involves at least three mental processes.

The intent is to learn multiple ways of conceptualizing the same knowledge. Then as you play, you move in and out of different mental processes depending upon your fluency in the required knowledge and which mental process translates the information most efficiently. For example, when you don't know the note names of a chord in a difficult key, you draw on your knowledge of box shapes associated with the chord type. Don't get the idea you can learn only the boxes though. You will advance further if you know the actual chord tones and how they fit, or don't fit in the current key center.

At some point chord symbols become archetypes that you recognize instantly and then automatically play with very little conscious effort. You are not necessarily totally free at this point, because what comes out is basically all of the licks and patterns you have learned, practiced, and committed to memory. Your memory serves as sort of a library of these musical elements. You see a chord symbol and simultaneously imagine in your minds ear the sounds you want while playing the notes on the instrument. You do this while anticipating the next chords in the progression and what you want to do with the line. So not only are you using various mental processes in real time, you are also anticipating what is coming next. At this point your playing is essentially instinctual.

As a really advance player you can start a solo line on any note and make it sound great. Learning chord inversions and modes is sort of a steppingstone to get there.

However, whether you should learn this material depends on your interest level and goals. If you are satisfied hammering out roots, you probably won't want to bother.

Good Luck!

 

[Wasnex]

My (jazz) bass teacher has me practicing triad inversions up and down the fretboard. I can do a root position very easily, in different locations, but when it comes to inversions, especially starting on the third, I get confused very quickly and have to think (for what seems like an eternity).

Entirely normal and ok.

 

[KenD]

As is often the case, the answer is "that depends". It depends on the genre(s) of music you aspire to play fluently, your style of playing and the degree of playing fluency that satisfies what your musical mind hears.

To my way of thinking the more subconscious/automatic fluency you develop, the fewer obstacles or diminishments between what your mind hears and what comes out of the speaker. So becoming comfortable with the sound and shapes of inversions is important in that regard.

"Gentlemen, we will chase perfection, and we will chase it relentlessly, knowing all the while we can never attain it. But along the way, we shall catch excellence.” - Vince Lombardi

 

[Wasnex]

Ok. So this leads me to another related question, which may or may not make sense.

Assuming you're working within a certain chord, and know where the root is... if you want to go from, say the major third to the fifth... do you base the movement off the root (in other words finding the fifth from where you know the root is) or directly off the knowledge of how to get from a third to a fifth, without using the root as a reference.

Doing it directly would seem to be faster, would make playing inversions easier, and would free you up to move all over the fretboard, but it involves knowing a lot of intervals, certainly more than just 7.

Michael

The goal is to know the chord tones fluently. Instead of thinking of DMaj7 as D,F#,A,#C...(one note after another), you think of them vertically as happening at the same time.

I don't really think of the inversions, I just pick the notes I want to play.

But you can also think of the inversions vertically:

Choose whichever works best for you. You might also practice the inversions, but when you are actually playing you only thing of the chord in root position while choosing the notes you want to play. Your preferred way of thinking is likely to change as you develop fluency.

Practicing the inversions seems a logical way to learn different box shapes, but IMHO it's probably not the most efficient way to think after you have developed fluency over this material. Much like I suggest practicing modes, but you probably won't actually think modally in most instances while playing.

 

[Lobster11]

I think that practicing inversions is overrated -- or perhaps more precisely, that playing other combinations of chord tones is underrated. That is....

First, for a simple triad (1-3-5) the inversions are 3-5-1 and 5-1-3. But there are three other sequences in which you could play those notes that you'll overlook if you focus strictly on inversions, i.e. 1-5-3, 3-1-5, and 5-3-1. I don't see why these latter three are any less important the "official" inversions and I think they warrant equal attention.

Second, it's easy to focus entirely on playing the triad and its inversions ascending -- i.e., up from 1 to 3 and up again from 3 to 5. But this can be done differently too: For example, one way of playing 1-3-5 that I find most helpful in my own playing is to start with the 1 and go down to the 3 and then the 5.

With these ideas in mind I have two suggestions:

First, you might try breaking down the triads into even simpler pairs of tones. For example, start with 1 and think of all the ways you could get to the 3, going both up and down. From the 1 there are two easy ways to get to the 3 going up, and two easy ways to get to the 3 going down. Then do the same for getting from the 1 to the 5 -- i.e. two ways going up and two going down. Finally, do the same for getting from the 3 to the 5.

Second, a really useful exercise that I learned from a pro player is to pick a simple chord -- say, C, with notes C, E, and G -- and just experiment with playing those notes in various sequences and various places all around the neck.

 

[Wasnex]

You're welcome to disagree, but there are plenty of virtuosic people who can play circles around most of us "educated" people who know nothing about music theory.

They may not think about it in a theoretical construct, but the people you are referencing still use inversions.

 

[SteveCS]

...
...
First, for a simple triad (1-3-5) the inversions are 3-5-1 and 5-1-3. But there are three other sequences in which you could play those notes that you'll overlook if you focus strictly on inversions, i.e. 1-5-3, 3-1-5, and 5-3-1. I don't see why these latter three are any less important the "official" inversions and I think they warrant equal attention
...

Yes and no.

Firstly the no - the inversion is defined solely by the bass note. 3rd in the bass is 1st inversion, always. The order or arrangement of notes above that changes nothing.

And the yes - all of those possibilities should be explored such that their effects are understood and can be used in our efforts to compose or improvise lines.

 

[Wasnex]

Yes and no.

Firstly the no - the inversion is defined solely by the bass note. 3rd in the bass is 1st inversion, always. The order or arrangement of notes above that changes nothing.

And the yes - all of those possibilities should be explored such that their effects are understood and can be used in our efforts to compose or improvise lines.

I think it could be helpful to play the inversions on piano. The idea is each inversion has a certain sound that you need to be able to recognize, so you know when you should play one of the upper chord tones in the bass rather than the root.

 

[BarfanyShart]

Sometime it helps me to think about chord shapes. Not because I want to play the chords, but because visualizing the chord shape helps me find the other chord tones in relation to the root.

Also, with jazz, it's helpful to think that 7th chords are kind of two overlapping triads. Like an Em7 chord is a G major triad plus an E in the bass, and a GMaj7 is a B minor triad plus the G in the bass. So, if you want to play with the inversions, think about starting an arpeggio on the third of the chord, with the opposit quality.

 

[micguy]

You're welcome to disagree, but there are plenty of virtuosic people who can play circles around most of us "educated" people who know nothing about music theory.

There are many ways to approach this but I'll focus on a few typical ways people would learn this stuff:

1) Theory based - you get taught a lot about chords, arpeggios, etc, and try them out. You won't learn everything you need to know in the book - you'll have to experiment on your own to really get this stuff. Throw someone in a jam with chords flying around, theory by itself isn't enough to make you thrive - it's a tool that gets you part way there.
2) You hit a "wrong" note, and somehow it sounds good, maybe even better. So, you try other "wrong" notes, and figure out that a lot of them actually work well - in certain places. Eventually patterns form in your brain, and you understand inversions - maybe without even knowing what they're called.
3) Playing with chord charts, you play the "slash" notes, and eventually experiment on your own to find other "cool" notes. Again, striking out on your own with this is a good exercise.

No matter how you approach it, a lot of practice is necessary to get to where you can apply this (and other) stuff without thinking about it - you hear things and play them automatically. That takes, no matter how you approach things, thousands of hours. Maybe Mozart did it in hundreds.

Music theory isn't like Physics - music theory is (among other things) a way of explaining what sounds good. If you figure out something that sounds good without using music theory, it isn't any less good. It also doesn't mean you don't "understand" it, you just understand it differently.

 

[J33]

Always practice with a drone note of your tonal center when practicing inversions. Super easy to dial up on Youtube. The inversions will sound much more "right" and you will teach yourself how to be hearing the root even though it isn't present.

Inversions are ultra important in understanding and connecting coherent and interesting lines. Getting off of your dependency in starting off on the root position will take a little bit of effort. Hang with it until it finally clicks.

If you want to learn and play Jazz...you are going to have to do a whole bunch of things you don't necessarily want to do and are going to have to take a whole bunch of actions you have yet to believe in. Trust me...when the thing "clicks" for you...You'll never be the same ever again in the best of ways possible.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

...the inversion is defined solely by the bass note. 3rd in the bass is 1st inversion, always. The order or arrangement of notes above that changes nothing.
.

Cool new info for me, thanks Steve and OP.

 

[Tom Kinter]

It comes with time and practice. You can study music for the rest of your life, and in the end will only know a fraction of what there is to know (IMHO). Enjoy the journey.

I generally conceptualize all four notes of 7th chords simultaneously. I learned them in college theory classes, where I was required to play them on piano in different inversions, and also do class composition projects with four-part voice leading. Thinking about them one note at a time is sort of a bass centric thing, since bass usually only plays one note. IMHO learning a bit of piano is one of the best things you can do if you want to be a serious musician. Piano will help with both your grasp of theory and also with developing your ear.

I do think of chord extensions and alterations sort of like add-ons. But if I practice a compositions with these elements, I start to think of them in a more homogenous way. Actually, at this point the chord tones are so internalized, that I don't always need to think of them. So I am more free to think directly about the extensions and alterations.

When you first start developing walking bass lines you tend to think in root position. But as you get more advanced you can create more interesting lines if you can freely work in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd inversion. It's a matter of knowing the notes, where they are located on the instruments, as well as the box shapes required to play them.

As you get more developed you also start using non-chord tones. So at some point you will also probably want to practice modes a bit. Modes are sort of like scale in inversions. In other words it's the same exact notes, you just start at a different point in the scale. If you are in Major, then Ionion is 1, Dorian is 2, Phrygian is 3, Lydian is 4, Mixolydian is 5, Aeolian is 6, and Locrian is 7. The same modes are used for natural minor but 6 (Aeolian) becomes 1. (Aeolian is 1, Locrian is 2, Ionian is 3, Dorian is 4, Phrygian is 5, Lydian is 6, Mixolydian is 7)

The Harmonic and Jazz Melodic scales generate a set of altered modes with modified or new names. You need to be pretty advanced to really keep them in your head; and FYI I really can't, although I do review them from time to time.

There are some songs that are modal, but most of time, most people do not really think in modes. However, I think learning and practicing the modes is still a good idea because it teaches you different finger patterns that you will use as an advanced player. It also exposes you to new and useful sounds. If you know your modes, it's easier to play diatonic non-chord tones.

You might want to save these links for later:
MAJOR SCALE AND ITS MODES (labdoo.org)
HARMONIC MINOR SCALE AND ITS MODES (labdoo.org)
MELODIC MINOR SCALE AND ITS MODES (labdoo.org)

...or find your own links that are better .

If I have not made it clear: I view modes mentally as diatonic notes in a key center, the hand shapes that are used to play the notes, and also each mode has a certain sound. So learning the modes thoroughly involves at least three mental processes.

The intent is to learn multiple ways of conceptualizing the same knowledge. Then as you play, you move in and out of different mental processes depending upon your fluency in the required knowledge and which mental process translates the information most efficiently. For example, when you don't know the note names of a chord in a difficult key, you draw on your knowledge of box shapes associated with the chord type. Don't get the idea you can learn only the boxes though. You will advance further if you know the actual chord tones and how they fit, or don't fit in the current key center.

At some point chord symbols become archetypes that you recognize instantly and then automatically play with very little conscious effort. You are not necessarily totally free at this point, because what comes out is basically all of the licks and patterns you have learned, practiced, and committed to memory. Your memory serves as sort of a library of these musical elements. You see a chord symbol and simultaneously imagine in your minds ear the sounds you want while playing the notes on the instrument. You do this while anticipating the next chords in the progression and what you want to do with the line. So not only are you using various mental processes in real time, you are also anticipating what is coming next. At this point your playing is essentially instinctual.

As a really advance player you can start a solo line on any note and make it sound great. Learning chord inversions and modes is sort of a steppingstone to get there.

However, whether you should learn this material depends on your interest level and goals. If you are satisfied hammering out roots, you probably won't want to bother.

Good Luck!

Great discussion!

I agree with wasnex's point about modes... my particular brain processes 'temporarily-Phrygian' faster than '1st inversion'.

 

[mjnyc]

Thanks to all. So much great info to digest, such a great resource!

 

[smtp4me]

Ok. So this leads me to another related question, which may or may not make sense.

Assuming you're working within a certain chord, and know where the root is... if you want to go from, say the major third to the fifth... do you base the movement off the root (in other words finding the fifth from where you know the root is) or directly off the knowledge of how to get from a third to a fifth, without using the root as a reference.

Doing it directly would seem to be faster, would make playing inversions easier, and would free you up to move all over the fretboard, but it involves knowing a lot of intervals, certainly more than just 7.

Michael

There are many ways to figure out which notes to play in an inverted chord. Memorizing where the 3rd and 5th are in relation to the root (and each other), is one way - i.e. memorizing patterns.

It helps to have the notes of every chord memorized, then you only need to find the nearest/next chord tone in sequence. It's kind of like memorizing multiplication tables as a kid. You memorize that 9x5 = 45, so that you don't have to actually write out the multiplication digit by digit to know the answer. You just know that 9x5 = 45. If you memorize the chord tones in a similar way, you don't have to work it out in your head - you just know that the 3rd and 5th of a C major chord are E and G, and that in first inversion, you play E first, then G and C in sequence.

You can also memorize the chord sequences in major and minor scales. For example, in a major scale:

• I = major
• II = minor
• III = minor
• IV = major
• V = major
• VI = minor
• VII = diminished

Once you memorize this, you automatically know that an A chord in the key of C major is a minor, with a flat 3rd (C instead of C#). From there you know that the 3rd is C (natural) and the next notes in sequence, are E and then A (root). It takes time to get to the point where this happens in your head in a few milliseconds, but it can be done.

 

[Tom Kinter]

Sometime it helps me to think about chord shapes. Not because I want to play the chords, but because visualizing the chord shape helps me find the other chord tones in relation to the root.

Also, with jazz, it's helpful to think that 7th chords are kind of two overlapping triads. Like an Em7 chord is a G major triad plus an E in the bass, and a GMaj7 is a B minor triad plus the G in the bass. So, if you want to play with the inversions, think about starting an arpeggio on the third of the chord, with the opposit quality.

excellent thinking point!

 

[g-dude]

I’m going to make it easy for you.

A major triad is made up of a major third followed by a minor third.

A minor triad is made up of a minor third followed by a major third.

The root to the fifth is a fifth. The fifth up to the root is a fourth.


So…

Major chord in root position: play the root, go up a major third, then go up a minor third.

Major chord, first inversion: play the third, go up a minor third, go up a fourth.

Major chord, second inversion: play the fifth, go up a fourth, go up a major third.

If you are playing up the neck a few frets, you literally only need to know three shapes.