IP112/EX112 users...enough volume?

[GRoberts]

I hear you... It's not an inexpensive piece - but it does sound great.

I've heard so many stories of people having trouble getting the right pre-amp for their IP's but we haven't had those issues. There are a couple of pre amps that I like a lot with the IP's and that are painless right out of the box.

Which Preamps would those be Joel?

 

[Scott McArron]

Which Preamps would those be Joel?

+1

 

[chadds]

I'm not Joel but:
I've seen and heard the PJB bass buddy used.
Personal experience for right out of the box:
The Demeter HPB-1. Bought it the minute I heard it with the tone controls at about 10 for BMT. It was plug and play.
The Kern IP-777. Could be something in it's name. It was destined to.
The Glock BAC pre.

Bass Emporium says that their IP demo pres are the Millenia TD-1 and the Demeter HPB-1. I didn't enjoy the TD-1 in another application and it's not plug and play itself and without a true output gain control it could give less then one might need with an IP. It still falls in the channel strip/DI family that works fine in a studio session but shows many weaknesses live with an IP that a budget bass amp doesn't have.

I've tried almost every pre out there and was discouraged because the IP exposes the sonic width of a pre and I was left not hearing the beauty of the IP. That may be some folks liking it just wasn't for me.

 

[Joelc73]

Which Preamps would those be Joel?

There are a couple that I like. The TD-1 is my first choice but it isn't for everyone because of the price. However, if you're going to go for an IP in the first place, why skimp on the front end?

I like Demeter HBP a lot. It sounds great flat but has a super flexible EQ for when you need it.

I like the Demeter VTBP also. It's not as versatile and it does have a dip in the mids but I like the way it lines up with the new IP310 program.

We've also been selling a ton of IP's with EBS Microbass pre-amps. They're super portable and really versatile. I haven't used one on a gig so I can't personally say how they would work live but they do quite well at rehearsal volume.

JC

 

[dunamis]

In my experience, the IP stack has always proven to be more than loud enough even outdoors.

Pre's I've used with my IP112\EX112:

* Summit TD-100 (B-mod) and w/TLA-50 comp
* UA LA-610
* PJB Bass Buddy
* SansAmp BDDI
* ART Tube MP
* Avalon U5

The Summit set up is my favorite by a stretch. The TLA-50 is a very high quality leveling amp type comp, and the gain knob acts as my master vol as opposed to the detented (click type or notched control) on the TD-100.

The LA-610 has a reallly excellent comp on it but the preamp section is not my favorite.

The PJB is an excellent choice-- one of the nicer pre's I've tried regardless of price. It's output is not quite hot enough to get the most out of the IP, but that's OK unless you need to push the IP's close to full output.

SansAmp-- is what it is. Very useful and and has some good tones in it (especially for a gritty or driven tone).

ART- I've used both the Tube MP as well as a Levelar tube comp with the IP's, and they are surprisingly good. Cheap, simple, and they sound great, particulary the MP for clean sound.

Avalon U5- A great DI-- maybe the best there is-- but not my favorite unit as a preamp for the IP's. I don't care for the EQ presets that much, nor the detented gain, and to my ear the sound is not as warm as I'd like with the IP's.

YMMV

Peace,

Matt

 

[FenderP]

The IP112 not loud enough? I first thought the thread title was a joke. Then I looked at it and realized it wasn't. I believe it boils down to personal preference of what you like in a sound. The IP112 alone was more than loud enough to do a Rush tribute band, and the clubs I play in, even the combo of the IP112/EX112 would be too much. I mean, since I got the IP112, sound guys don't even bother mic'ing me or doing DI. The IP112 cuts right through on its own.

It also comes down to weight: the IP153 or IP310 are too heavy for me at this point. I'm an Ampeg guy from way back, and I can tell you that I have yet to be disappointed with the IP112.

To each his own. I'm sure the IP112 or IP112/EX112 combo isn't loud enough for some (although if you need more than 1000 watts just for bass, what kind of band are you in? lol), but I can't even see needing the EX112, let alone more power than it ...

 

[Matt Morgan]

I don't care what type of band you're in, a single 12" speaker, even if its driven by the most state of the art DSP programmed power source, has its limits. It's a simple matter of physics and surface area. There are numerous situations that I've played in that even two 12" cabs with plenty of power behind them weren't sufficient. I suspect that many players on this forum, especially rock players, would say the same.

I have every confidence that the IP112 tone is everything that everyone is talking about. That has been one of the factors regarding my decision to go with this system. The tone quality of the system is not a question in my mind. The simple fact remains that a single 12" cabinet is what it is; no more, no less. Even with an extension cabintet, the system is what it is.

Additionally, the 1000w ratining of the system is the maximum power that the amp will produce. The speakers themselves are still only rated at 300w and the maximum power levels will only very rarely ever be reached or required of the amp.

The IP112 may work very well for you in your application. However, there are those including myself that have serious questions about the real world application of this system, especially considering the significant investment required.

 

[ibz]

I don't care what type of band you're in, a single 12" speaker, even if its driven by the most state of the art DSP programmed power source, has its limits. It's a simple matter of physics and surface area. There are numerous situations that I've played in that even two 12" cabs with plenty of power behind them weren't sufficient. I suspect that many players on this forum, especially rock players, would say the same.

I have every confidence that the IP112 tone is everything that everyone is talking about. That has been one of the factors regarding my decision to go with this system. The tone quality of the system is not a question in my mind. The simple fact remains that a single 12" cabinet is what it is; no more, no less. Even with an extension cabintet, the system is what it is.

Additionally, the 1000w ratining of the system is the maximum power that the amp will produce. The speakers themselves are still only rated at 300w and the maximum power levels will only very rarely ever be reached or required of the amp.

The IP112 may work very well for you in your application. However, there are those including myself that have serious questions about the real world application of this system, especially considering the significant investment required.

I don't think FenderP was purposely trying to discredit your question.

On the other hand, I also understand your reservations, as I myself haven't heard one.

 

[chadds]

...this discussion came up earlier. Whether it's loud enough isn't the issue for me, it's clean tone. If my amp can't sound clear and clean at usable volumes then I don't have enough watts and or speakers. I've never liked fart bass. One of my groups played outside today for an art showing with PA only for the sax player. My guitarists use 15-18 watt amps. They scream. I walked out in front and heard clear bass tone. In fact I wasn't loud enough so I turned up. I am using an IP153 and the EX115. My tone was the same as you would hear at conversation volumes only louder. Edginess and drive come from my finger attack. I own a 2 1x12 cab stack (not Berg IP) and there is no way it would provide for me the tone I like at this volume. It would sound strained and distorted. I have heard many bassists get this tone and it gives creedance to the folks who say it doesn't matter what gear you use or how many watts or even what cable you use because you can't hear it. I would have to agree if your tone is this distorted mash. Jack Bruce couldn't help it. He said recently he wouldn't use that gear now.
This is only my opinion and I find that my observations must be qualified with the fact that the type of music you play contributes hugely to this discussion.
If you are great listeners and aren't in each others sonic space a 1x10 combo may suffice. But putting down huge fundamental with full instrumentation needs oomph to support, be heard and put the pulse out that makes the people move.

 

[FenderP]

I don't care what type of band you're in, a single 12" speaker, even if its driven by the most state of the art DSP programmed power source, has its limits. It's a simple matter of physics and surface area. There are numerous situations that I've played in that even two 12" cabs with plenty of power behind them weren't sufficient. I suspect that many players on this forum, especially rock players, would say the same.

Well, I've been playing for about 30 years now. My favorite amps or combos are ones that are 1x15" or 2x15". My experience with 12" speakers in the past when I flirted with them is that they were not for me. I heard the IP112 and I changed my tune. Quickly.

The main reason I brought up the Rush band (now defunct) is that I was competing with a lot sonically - my keys, the singer, the guitar player, and last but not least a drummer with a massive kit including the electronics. No other amp I was using with about the same power (including a Mesa Walkabout Scout) cut the proverbial mustard sonically or volume-wise.

I think you really need to hear it before you pass judgement. Yes, 2x12" pushes more "air". No doubt about it. And I've heard the IP112/EX112 - it is more "stereo" (only way I can describe it), but the same sound MUCH louder. I didn't need that. The IP112 does the job for me.

As you say, "the system is what it is." The IP112 simply is the loudest amp I've ever played. I've played everything from rock to pit bands for musicals to jazz and everything inbetween.

I can only offer you my experience with the amp having now owned it for quite some time.

You asked the question. I answered. Good luck to you in your quest.

 

[Joelc73]

The IP/EX stack is loud enough for most gigs that I can think of. The single IP112 alone is quite loud, and loud enough for many gigs, but you do have to exercise some caution. One of our customers just blew the speaker in his by not taking his extension cab to a loud gig and pushing the IP112 too hard to compensate. This is a reality with any cab and has nothing to do with the IP.

 

[chadds]

A single small speaker can be loud enough if it is broadcasting all mids. I have heard a guy fill a small club in a full band with a Polytone mini brute with a P-bass. PA only on the vocals. Since they were playing covers I'm sure we were filling in all the absent bass and highs.
No flaming here. If you say it's as loud as you need I understand. If you say it's as loud at producing the full range of a bass I'm going to differ. If it does the full range of a Fender I could understand. If you said it would of an MTD for example I'd have to differ.
Conversely, I was using a '70 SVT head on a Cerwin Vega B-36MF. Half a folded horn 1x18 with a JBL K-120 1x12 front firing. It's replacement that was in the same room was a just introduced, SWR SM-400 and a 2x10 Goliath Jr. cab, speakers by Eden. In the studio it was more "hearable". Focused I could say. It didn't shake the room and you could hear all of the frequencies coming from that cab. The SVT Cerwin Vega combination was making this sound way too big for the room so it wasn't developing there. I preferred a Marshall 100 watt or 200 watt head on a Marshall 4x12 to my Acoustic 360 because it was more present. The Acoustic 360 cranked to 8 or about 3 o'clock did in a live gig drown out two drummers and two Marshall full stacks. Again in your Rush example if you are replicating Geddy tone then why spend the money on the IP gear which is capable of so much full range quality, depth and clarity? I can take refuse to the dump in a Porsche but should I? Almost any gear can do Geddy tone because it is so limited in lows and low mids. Peace.

It's interesting I've realized while writing this that the SVT 8x10 actually falls in the category we are speaking of. It has a low roll off starting at 70 hz. At it's introduction it gave bassists so much punch and in those days cab power handling. It did not have the wide freq resp of differently designed cabs with ports and efficient JBL or Altec speakers. It cut through and made for a present stage sound. It has a pleasing distortion that appeals to many and adds an ambience to certain types of music. So having not heard every 12 player out there I will concede if that is the sound you are after I can see why a 500 to 1000 watt 1x12 to 2x1x12 would appeal to you if it got close in tone and volume. The portability would be the amazing deciding factor. I get it.
I do love 12s myself.

 

[greenboy]

The IP/EX stack is loud enough for most gigs that I can think of. The single IP112 alone is quite loud, and loud enough for many gigs, but you do have to exercise some caution. One of our customers just blew the speaker in his by not taking his extension cab to a loud gig and pushing the IP112 too hard to compensate. This is a reality with any cab and has nothing to do with the IP.

Yeah, whatever the 12" woofer, it has thermal and excursion limits, and no amount of DSP massaging can bypass those.

...One thing DSPs can do is incorporate limiting to prevent driver damage.

 

[FenderP]

Again in your Rush example if you are replicating Geddy tone then why spend the money on the IP gear which is capable of so much full range quality, depth and clarity? I can take refuse to the dump in a Porsche but should I? Almost any gear can do Geddy tone because it is so limited in lows and low mids. Peace.

So let me get this straight - just because I was in a Rush tribute band, I'm unworthy of a Berg? That's rich. The main reason I got the Berg is because it had the quality, depth, and clarity no other amp brought to the table. My Ampegs were not loud enough and I wasn't going to kill them just to play them for that particular gig. And if you were paying attention, I think I have made it clear I do more than just do Rush. So while I needed the IP for that band and it was the genesis of the whole thing, it's not the only type of music I'll ever play through it. And trust me you're wrong on the tone and any amp can "get it". I was using MY tone, not Geddy's, to play bass. I can get close to that Moving Pictures sound if I want with my equipment, but we did the entire spectrum of Rush right through Vapor Trails. Oh, and for the record, I didn't use a Fender Jazz. I mainly used my Tokai or my P.

Look, I would never say that no one needs the EX112. Clearly some do and there are some sonic benefits to it. As far as gain, see my other thread for info on using the B-25B with it, but using the SVP-CL, I only had the master volume to about 50% and it was still loud enough.

Also remember that besides the DSP and that the cab is very, very tuned by Jim, there is a single horn/tweeter in there so you can dial in some highs, too. Most 1x12" cabs do not have it.

Now, is it as full range as an IP310? Maybe not, but I've always disliked 10s, too. The IP153 would have been great if it was just slightly bigger than the IP112, but it's the same as the IP310 in terms of cab size and weight.

Audition the IP112 for yourself and then come back and let us know if you think it's lacking in sound. I played through a Polytone back in the day. This is no Polytone To base opinions purely on what the paper says is a bit ridiculous. Yes, you can't beat physics, but Jim comes close.

I'm sorry I can't offer anymore in this thread as I'm sick of getting attacked for just stating my opinion. Again, I wish the OP good luck in his quest. I'm out.

 

[KJung]

...that the cab is very, very tuned by Jim, there is a single horn/tweeter in there so you can dial in some highs, too. Most 1x12" cabs do not have it.

Most high quality 112's are 'tuned' by the designer, and have crossovers and tweeters (HT112, Epi112UL, AG GS112, AG DB112, etc., etc., etc.).

If your primary comparison is the Polytone, I can understand why the IP112 would be quite a shock (in a good way!)

It is one heck of a loud 112!

 

[FenderP]

Most high quality 112's are 'tuned' by the designer, and have crossovers and tweeters (HT112, Epi112UL, AG GS112, AG DB112, etc., etc., etc.).

If your primary comparison is the Polytone, I can understand why the IP112 would be quite a shock (in a good way!)

It is one heck of a loud 112!

I wasn't comparing it to the Polytone. Someone else brought up the fact that a Polytone could fill a room in the right situation, and I was making a joke. I guess people here can't detect sarcasm.

 

[KJung]

I wasn't comparing it to the Polytone. Someone else brought up the fact that a Polytone could fill a room in the right situation, and I was making a joke. I guess people here can't detect sarcasm.

Ah... I was tuning in to the fact that you seem to think that a 'designer tuned, two way 112 cab is somehow unique'.

I'm actually with you.... if any rig is loud enough on a gig for you, then the rig is loud enough. End of discussion.

 

[FenderP]

Ah... I was tuning in to the fact that you seem to think that a 'designer tuned, two way 112 cab is somehow unique'.

I'm actually with you.... if any rig is loud enough on a gig for you, then the rig is loud enough. End of discussion.[/

What cab maker would be dumb enough to just stick a speaker in a box and not make sure it was tuned for the cab it was put in?

My loud enough will not be yours or anyone else's. I was just sharing my experiences. Too bad people can't see that.

 

[KJung]

What cab maker would be dumb enough to just stick a speaker in a box and not make sure it was tuned for the cab it was put in?

My loud enough will not be yours or anyone else's. I was just sharing my experiences. Too bad people can't see that.

I'm confused I thought I was agreeing with you

 

[greenboy]

I'm confused I thought I was agreeing with you

It's the way you said it, Ken. Go stand in the corner! (boundary reinforcement provided)