Is adhering to the kick drum pattern admired?

[TheIndieKid]

So, I love all the standard bassists everyone admires here on talkbass. You know-John Paul Jones, James Jamerson, etc. However, whenever I hear their music, the one thing that catches me, (and really, any music) apart from their musicality, is the punch-even through headphones-of when the kick and bass match up. It really is something. I also like, when the bassist mimics the pattern of the drums, playing low notes for the kick and maybe a high note for the snare, whilst matching the cymbal sustain. However, quite a few people say that this rigid pocket is often a signature of a novice bassist, but I think it really confirms the purpose of the bass as a bridge between the drums and guitars (rhythm and harmony). It also keeps your playing simplistic. However, I don’t want to be recognised as boring. I just feel it lets the music breath a lot more. Do you think I’m okay having this aspiration or not?

 

[biguglyman]

I think it really confirms the purpose of the bass as a bridge between the drums and guitars (rhythm and harmony).

Agreed. In my days of writing in a band format, the kick pattern was an essential part of writing the bass line IMHO. You can obviously do variations, add and subtract where you synch up with the kick, but it's a great place to start.

 

[Groove Doctor]

It called "playing in the pocket".... and its highly addictive.

 

[TheIndieKid]

It called "playing in the pocket".... and its highly addictive.

Funnily enough, I’ve always thought playing in the space between the snare backbeat was pocket playing, but people have several different meanings for the word. I find that playing in the pocket give some your playing a whole different feel. Funky and bouncy, as opposed to melodic, I guess.

Unless the drummer is going four to the floor, it only usually leaves you with about two notes per bar, unless you stray by using some passing tones or you add a fill.

 

[Reedt2000]

I think the reason people put down playing exactly to the kick and snare figures is that there are so many other options. There is nothing wrong with sticking tight to the drum patterns but you are not obligated to do so. It can also vary stylistically how closely your parts mirror drum parts. John Paul Jones was great at understanding the individual characteristics of a tune and playing accordingly. When the vocal or other factors need to be focused on he is parred down and solid. Where there is room for the bass to shine he played sweet, melodic lines. There needs to be a rhythmic relationship between the drums and bass, especially in a rock setting. How close that relationship is depends on the specific song and the tastes of the players.

 

[buldog5151bass]

That's where you start when you develop a line. Bass is the bridge between rhythm and Melody.

 

[Reedt2000]

That's where you start when you develop a line. Bass is the bridge between rhythm and Melody.

Well put

 

[Groove Doctor]

In The Pocket - Drummer Cafe

Session Guitar: The Importance of Playing "In The Pocket"

"Generally, the pocket is the perfect synchronicity of the bass drum and the bass guitar. When applied to an entire band, it's about everyone playing in perfect time, with attitude."

 

[dougjwray]

Like so many other things, it's just an option to be aware of, not a strict rule.
Context is everything, and the more experience you gain, the more you learn about what you can choose to do.

 

[Nephilymbass]

So, I love all the standard bassists everyone admires here on talkbass. You know-John Paul Jones, James Jamerson, etc. However, whenever I hear their music, the one thing that catches me, (and really, any music) apart from their musicality, is the punch-even through headphones-of when the kick and bass match up. It really is something. I also like, when the bassist mimics the pattern of the drums, playing low notes for the kick and maybe a high note for the snare, whilst matching the cymbal sustain. However, quite a few people say that this rigid pocket is often a signature of a novice bassist, but I think it really confirms the purpose of the bass as a bridge between the drums and guitars (rhythm and harmony). It also keeps your playing simplistic. However, I don’t want to be recognised as boring. I just feel it lets the music breath a lot more. Do you think I’m okay having this aspiration or not?

I refer to this as “locking in with the drums” I think it’s best to get good at it but then use it often but still off and on. For example for the chorus of a song I’m always mindful of the drums and especially the kick. During the verse of a song though I might play some notes with the kick and other notes when the only thing the drummer is hitting that second is the hi hat. To me if you don’t lock in enough the music will just sound off, but if you lock in too much it starts to sound monotonous.

 

[bassliner50]

When I listen carefully to James Jamerson's approach, often I hear unmistakable similarities between his lines and rhythms you would expect to hear from a conga drum. (complex conga rhythms and syncopations in addition to adherence to the kick drum. Easily discernible in "What's Goin On", but you can find it everywhere in JJ's work). Check it out.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I refer to this as “locking in with the drums” I think it’s best to get good at it but then use it often but still off and on. For example for the chorus of a song I’m always mindful of the drums and especially the kick. During the verse of a song though I might play some notes with the kick and other notes when the only thing the drummer is hitting that second is the hi hat. To me if you don’t lock in enough the music will just sound off, but if you lock in too much it starts to sound monotonous.

I think you are among (very) few TB members who understands about the importance of the song’s Form.
Also, it’s nice to see that TB members start asking questions about the drum rhythmic pattern (!) and the bass line.

 

[Nephilymbass]

I think you are among (very) few TB members who understands about the importance of the song’s Form.
Also, it’s nice to see that TB members start asking questions about the drum rhythmic pattern (!) and the bass line.

Thank you, I appreciate it. Definitely something I’ve been working more on in recent years.

 

[Dana R Gregory]

I think it depends on both the genre and the particular song being played. For the most part, locking in with the drummer will earn you lots of praise from the drummer and the other musicians. Jack Casady said in in an interview a while back, If you play on the one, you will get hired. Bootsy Collins said always play on the one, you can't go wrong. It's that simple. I have had songs where I simply play just on the one and it is sooooooooo effective, especially for dancers. Let the guitarist do the shredding. That is not what bass is for.

 

[Kipp Harrington]

I think it depends on both the genre and the particular song being played. For the most part, locking in with the drummer will earn you lots of praise from the drummer and the other musicians. Jack Casady said in in an interview a while back, If you play on the one, you will get hired. Bootsy Collins said always play on the one, you can't go wrong. It's that simple. I have had songs where I simply play just on the one and it is sooooooooo effective, especially for dancers. Let the guitarist do the shredding. That is not what bass is for.

Let the guitarist do the shredding. That is not what bass is for.

Amen!!!

 

[eJake]

So, I love all the standard bassists everyone admires here on talkbass. You know-John Paul Jones, James Jamerson, etc. However, whenever I hear their music, the one thing that catches me, (and really, any music) apart from their musicality, is the punch-even through headphones-of when the kick and bass match up. It really is something. I also like, when the bassist mimics the pattern of the drums, playing low notes for the kick and maybe a high note for the snare, whilst matching the cymbal sustain. However, quite a few people say that this rigid pocket is often a signature of a novice bassist, but I think it really confirms the purpose of the bass as a bridge between the drums and guitars (rhythm and harmony). It also keeps your playing simplistic. However, I don’t want to be recognised as boring. I just feel it lets the music breath a lot more. Do you think I’m okay having this aspiration or not?

I would not worry about being considered boring. Go listen to some EW&F. The kick is always with the bass and no one EVER called Verdeen White boring. Thing about the pocket that some folks have trouble grasping is that it's not meant to be seen and it's not necessarily even meant to be played. It's a feel thing more than anything else that goes on between the rhythm section.

When I moved to new Orleans and started playing reggae, a BL told me: you didn't come down here to learn how to play music Jake, you already knew that in Chicago. U came down here to learn how to FEEL music. I'm still not sure I understand completely what he meant but I know I get closer every day.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I would not worry about being considered boring. Go listen to some EW&F. The kick is always with the bass and no one EVER called Verdeen White boring. Thing about the pocket that some folks have trouble grasping is that it's not meant to be seen and it's not necessarily even meant to be played. It's a feel thing more than anything else that goes on between the rhythm section.

When I moved to new Orleans and started playing reggae, a BL told me: you didn't come down here to learn how to play music Jake, you already knew that in Chicago. U came down here to learn how to FEEL music. I'm still not sure I understand completely what he meant but I know I get closer every day.

N.B. EW&F is my overall most favorite band.

If you are saying that Verdine played only the kick notes then, I will stop right now...

 

[micguy]

You should be capable of making the bass and kick sound like one instrument - the attack comes from the kick, the low end girth from the sustain of the bass. You should also be capable of doing counterpoint - rhythms that accentuate each other, rather than absolutely in step. On one of the tunes I play semi-regularly (this is church stuff, so I play with various drummers), there is a section where the drums break into syncopation, and if I go with him, it's not funky - it's just two guys going off beat. When I stick to four on the floor (a very straight beat), the drum part works a whole lot better - the parts play off each other, rather than working in lock step. My favorite part of that tune is that drum part, and although it doesn't make ME stick out to do the straight part, it's just so cool when it works that I gladly do my part in making it work.

 

[electracoyote]

That kick-bass punch really is something, especially when both are tuned and toned up nicely.

Keep in mind that sometimes the accent is part of the song, and the drummer is merely matching the accents in the song rather than the other way around.

Also, in a lot of rock/funk/R&B, I have noticed an effective combination of kick-bass matched and then one of them goes off-beat with a note or two and they don't match, but you get this cool syncopation effect from the combination. Many good examples of the "off and on" approach referred to above. It's a real art form knowing how to write lines and arrangements for kick and bass.

 

[DanAdams]

Being conscious of the drums and locked in MENTALLY is what I think is the most important part, so just asking this question means that you are thinking about the right stuff.
Often I'll see a band where the bass player seems oblivious to the kick drum.
Anyhow there is no rule. My best friend and bandmate was a drummer when I was a teen and we practiced together A LOT. I think I would be a much worse player if it were not for that. I'm still a better player when I'm in the same room with a drummer; I don't like recording tracks separately.