Worked for the Germans, who imported Czech labor to build America's driveway status symbols ("Ooh! Aah! German quality!")
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Is Fender a scam?
- Thread starter widdelywaahhkid
- Start date
- Status
Worked for the Germans, who imported Czech labor to build America's driveway status symbols ("Ooh! Aah! German quality!")
This has not been my experience at all. I think the trend has been pretty consistent, and whatever love there is for SX is also most likely still alive and unabated. Of course we might very well be reading different threads, and TB popularity, however consistent, is not a real indicator of value.
That said, while I usually didn't bother to pick up Fenders or Squiers in shops, I have tried doing so recently and was pleasantly surprised by both lines. Of course, when I pick up a Fender it is likely to be an American Deluxe (I'm not buying anything, might as well try the top of the line), and I like their weight and the solid feeling necks. I don't experience any magic, it's just a good bass that feels nice in my hands. When I pick up a Squier (usually CV's og VM's) I often find them too light, especially the necks seem like their made of some kind of plastic. Don't take that the wrong way, they seem solid enough and I wouldn't hesitate to gig them, but they feel too flimsy for me. Plugging them In I don't get any 'blown away' experience with either brand, but I like different pickup con's, so there you go.
Funnily, I recently tried out a couple of Sadowski Metros, a brand that I otherwise only knew through TB, and while I was crazy about the preamp, pickups, general quality and playability, it actually reminded me a lot more of the Squiers than Fenders in terms of feeling. Seems like I am into heavier necks, which means that if I had to choose, I would pick a Fender over a Squier or a Metro (about 1/10 price relation). But my experience is based on a relatively small number of instruments...
Martin
EDIT: I Just realized my response suggested that I consider this a "Fender Sucks Thread". I definitely don't.
This thread is starting to take a darker turn.
I remember a thread a while back arguing about MIA fret work. One person insisted that Fender leveled their frets but did not crown them. He insisted, essentially, that this was a QC decision. Fender achieved its desired level of quality without expending labor on this step. In the case of Squiers, my observations and estimations are that, while the fret ends may get a minimal dressing, there is very little if any time spent leveling or crowning frets. You can still get a very playable instrument. I mean, if the frets are installed properly on a fairly level fretboard, you get a fairly playable instrument.
So regardless of country of origin, you get different levels of QC. On a Squier, you get a bass with installed frets. On an MIA, you get a bass with leveled frets. On a Sadowsky, you get a bass with as much time sent leveling and crowning as is necessary for the luthier to be convinced he has done his best job. By changing your qc standards, you can change the minimum amount of labor required, regardless of unit price. You are also affecting average quality, but we will always argue about this; feel and payability are highly subjective. So, it will happen that you get several Squiers that outpace their qc standard, and may even be of higher "payability" than the average MIA.
So yes, you could bring an Indonesian worker to the US and hold the overall product to a higher qc standard. It will affect the unit price for labor, but you can do it.
As another example, my Indo Spector (plays great and appears to just have raw, undressed frets, btw), has issues in its control cavity. The router template was positioned improperly,so wood blocks were glued in so that the screws for the cover plate would have something to grab. Similarly, one of the truss rod cover screws misses the wood entirely. And, both truss rods were siezed in place by the finish that had been sprayed on the headstock. The neck was straight, and none of these issues affected the appearance or playability of this instrument, so it met the minimum Qc standard for the pricepoint. The first time I turned the truss rods and broke them loose from the finish,I knew that the bass had never been truly set up. Action was set, but intonation, nut height, relief, etc., these types of adjustments weren't required to meet the QC standard for the pricepoint. Guess what, though? This bass plays and sounds great! Playability holds up to anything I own, including my MIA Fenders. But guess what else? Spector quickly moved production out of this factory, accepted a little higher sale price as a result of an increase in manufacturing costs, and barely acknowledges this chapter of their history. These issues, that don't necessarily affect tone or playability, were not up to the qc standard that Spector wanted to meet.
I remember a thread a while back arguing about MIA fret work. One person insisted that Fender leveled their frets but did not crown them. He insisted, essentially, that this was a QC decision. Fender achieved its desired level of quality without expending labor on this step. In the case of Squiers, my observations and estimations are that, while the fret ends may get a minimal dressing, there is very little if any time spent leveling or crowning frets. You can still get a very playable instrument. I mean, if the frets are installed properly on a fairly level fretboard, you get a fairly playable instrument.
So regardless of country of origin, you get different levels of QC. On a Squier, you get a bass with installed frets. On an MIA, you get a bass with leveled frets. On a Sadowsky, you get a bass with as much time sent leveling and crowning as is necessary for the luthier to be convinced he has done his best job. By changing your qc standards, you can change the minimum amount of labor required, regardless of unit price. You are also affecting average quality, but we will always argue about this; feel and payability are highly subjective. So, it will happen that you get several Squiers that outpace their qc standard, and may even be of higher "payability" than the average MIA.
So yes, you could bring an Indonesian worker to the US and hold the overall product to a higher qc standard. It will affect the unit price for labor, but you can do it.
As another example, my Indo Spector (plays great and appears to just have raw, undressed frets, btw), has issues in its control cavity. The router template was positioned improperly,so wood blocks were glued in so that the screws for the cover plate would have something to grab. Similarly, one of the truss rod cover screws misses the wood entirely. And, both truss rods were siezed in place by the finish that had been sprayed on the headstock. The neck was straight, and none of these issues affected the appearance or playability of this instrument, so it met the minimum Qc standard for the pricepoint. The first time I turned the truss rods and broke them loose from the finish,I knew that the bass had never been truly set up. Action was set, but intonation, nut height, relief, etc., these types of adjustments weren't required to meet the QC standard for the pricepoint. Guess what, though? This bass plays and sounds great! Playability holds up to anything I own, including my MIA Fenders. But guess what else? Spector quickly moved production out of this factory, accepted a little higher sale price as a result of an increase in manufacturing costs, and barely acknowledges this chapter of their history. These issues, that don't necessarily affect tone or playability, were not up to the qc standard that Spector wanted to meet.
My MIMs - P Special Deluxe, Dimension - get more play time than my MIAs - P Elite II, HM. My P Elite II is my favorite, but the neck is massive and I have short fingers. The other 3 have jazz necks, which I have grown rather fond of, and the Dimension has a 12" radius fretboard. I find the Dimension to be the easiest playing bass I've ever owned.
'Scam' may be overstating it a bit. I do think it is important to judge an instrument on its practical merits rather than by its branding. If you have enough experience to know why an instrument feels and sounds good, you should also know that it isn't always related to what brand it is.
IMO, solid-body instruments are commodity items and are pretty hard to screw up if even an ounce of care is used to shape and assemble them. Otherwise they are unusable. The cosmetics of them have nothing to do with how they sound, and nearly every part of them is replaceable and upgradable.
Caveat emptor. Go in knowing what you like and get it.
IMO, solid-body instruments are commodity items and are pretty hard to screw up if even an ounce of care is used to shape and assemble them. Otherwise they are unusable. The cosmetics of them have nothing to do with how they sound, and nearly every part of them is replaceable and upgradable.
Caveat emptor. Go in knowing what you like and get it.
- Oct 7, 2000
- 18,619
- 38,942
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Musicman basses
I owned a few MIA Fenders, including a P deluxe, and my Squier active 5 got more play time than any Fender I ever owned. As soon as I sell off a couple of basses (made a deal with myself, no new basses till I sell 2 
), I plan to buy a Squier Jazz with a Fender logo for use in a Zep tribute.
), I plan to buy a Squier Jazz with a Fender logo for use in a Zep tribute.
It's not the Indonesian workers that make Squiers so attractive. It's their poverty level pay rate. What the United States needs to do to make bass guitars affordable is to cut the salaries of factory workers by a factor of 20, and eliminate all benefits like health care.
Where do we start? What do you do for a living, Darnell?? Can we start with you??
This is a perfect example or our world today. Countries with a high standard of living,(high wages) cannot complete with countries with low wages. In years past, the quality was poor from those countries. Now American manufacturers have sent their quality control people into these factories and trained them to make great instruments. It's very possible that "Made in USA" will not exist in the near future. Don't misunderstand, I love American products, I just can't afford them.
I'm no Fender fan even though I own a MIM JAzz and a Squire P that are excellent basses. But in spite of that I have become convinced that Fender is NOT a "scam". What is a scam is that many players strongly believe in "rules" that simply aren't true. One is "you get what you pay for". Another is that if you get gear like Joe Blow, you'll sound just like Joe. And another is that there are only really two basses: Fender Jazz and Fender P. All the rest are posers.
Real rules:
1. Certain instruments have a certain "something" in the tone that sets them above others. I became convinced that Fender had this listening to a pro player try a herd of boutique basses. Clearly a plain old Factory Fender had a certain "something" in the tone that many of the boutiques did not. And it was a fraction the price.
2. Basses are made from trees by people. That means they vary one to another even when "identical". Seen this proved lots of times. Know pros with Squires that kill. Seen MIA Fenders that were crap. Now it is more LIKELY that a MIA will be great and the Squire not so hot, but by no means CERTAIN.
3. Instrument costs rise exponentially with "quality". No matter what musicians tell you about "night and day" if you double the cost of an instrument, it's quality does NOT "double". You only get a SMALL improvement. Double it again, another small improvement. Etc. So is a million dollar Strad THAT much better than a student violin? Well, no. BUT IF you want THAT sound, well, junior you have to fork out.
4. Part of the cost of a hand-tweaked instrument may be things you can "tweak" yourself. We've heard people whining about sharp fret ends on a Squire. And a Sadowsky doesn't have them. But you are paying Roger to do that for you. My Squire fret ends were fixed with 20 minutes, a file and my Dremel tool. I"m not going to say it's as good as Roger's job, but it's good enough for me! If the instrument starts with some decent raw materials, various new parts or mods can create a very nice player and you avoid the "high" end of the exponential cost curve. I think this is the appeal of SX and Squier here in TB.
That's what I know.
bassbenj said:
+1 I like the "basses are like dogs" theory. they are mans best friend
and you CAN get a neglected old beat up one, but you can't complain when it bites you, you have to be willing to put in the time and TLC to make it nice once again. OR you can go to a breeder and get a $5,000 pomeranian which is already nice and cute and fluffy.somthing tells me this is another squier bashing thread.
let me put on my flame proof suit *flame proof suit on*
my main bass for the last 4 years has been a squier jazz bass. ive used it on all my live gigs, 80% of all songs ive worked on, its my main practace bass. it doesnt miss a beat and considering i only paid £80 for it then i dont see a problem. i did modify it slightly by adding a 3-way gibson style mechanical toggle, drop-d tuner and set the pickup hights for less output but i love it to bits. its never went wrong. if i could afford a fender i would buy one. i can so this is what i use. i love it to bits and wouldent trade it for the world. there great for the money
let me put on my flame proof suit *flame proof suit on*
my main bass for the last 4 years has been a squier jazz bass. ive used it on all my live gigs, 80% of all songs ive worked on, its my main practace bass. it doesnt miss a beat and considering i only paid £80 for it then i dont see a problem. i did modify it slightly by adding a 3-way gibson style mechanical toggle, drop-d tuner and set the pickup hights for less output but i love it to bits. its never went wrong. if i could afford a fender i would buy one. i can so this is what i use. i love it to bits and wouldent trade it for the world. there great for the money
Better quality control means you're probably more likely to find a nicer MIA than a Squire...there are ostensibly more duds per gem as parts/labor gets cheaper.
Also, I want to second the guy who mentioned the necks...every squire neck I've played has been light years below my American Deluxe. And most Fender brand necks. I like maple necks though...I think it may be harder to hide cheapness on maple.
People who complain about the prices of US-made goods vs. Asian-made goods slay me!
"Do you want American factory workers to make a living wage!!??"
Squier owners: "Yeah!!"
"Do you want American factory workers to have decent health care and pensions!!??"
Squier owners: "Yeah!! WOOO!!!"
"Do you want American factory workers to work in a safe and clean environment!!??"
Squier owners: "YEAH!!!" *thunderous applause*
"Well let's all get down to the music store and BUY AMERICAN!!!"
Squier owners: *dead silence interrupted by an occasional cricket chirping*
"Do you want American factory workers to make a living wage!!??"
Squier owners: "Yeah!!"
"Do you want American factory workers to have decent health care and pensions!!??"
Squier owners: "Yeah!! WOOO!!!"
"Do you want American factory workers to work in a safe and clean environment!!??"
Squier owners: "YEAH!!!" *thunderous applause*
"Well let's all get down to the music store and BUY AMERICAN!!!"
Squier owners: *dead silence interrupted by an occasional cricket chirping*
Amen. I think it's ridiculous to contend that the USA made instruments have fallen in quality. This whole thing is hubris.
Part of the reason you like the Squier better, imo, as with many things is there is a certain level of laissez faire that comes with a lower dollar instrument, and not caring whether it gets dinged up or falls off the couch, or what have you, and brings a level of comfort and gravitating to it vs. the pricier instrument where you spent all this money, blah blah blah and never want to take it out of the house...
some people don't care about taking their multi thousand dollar instruments to dive bars, and get the same level of enjoyment as you do in your low dollar offering because there is no fixation on damage or whatever. Stop looking at it like a vase, and more like an old hammer, and any well playing, well sounding instrument can attain the same level of enjoyment...
OR, simply ask yourself why you spent all that money in the first place and sell it and keep convincing yourself the low dollar offerings are just as good. Why? Because it's all subjective. Like what you like, don't treat it so precious, and just play the damn things already.
It sure as hell is. There'll be a new one tomorrow.
Ok, my 10 pence. Having played played various squires, Strats and many other bands in the last 30 odd years I can say one thing, MOST of the instruments produced 20 years ago would not pass ANY QC today.
The whole Fender vs Squire thing depends on what is important to you. Is a Fender USA Standard Precision 3 times better than a Squire Classics Vibe......... Your opinion, for me... No
But what value is it to go to your guitar cave and see a "made in the USA" Precision or any other model??
How much of the value is in technical construction, how much is in the feeling of playing something you really want/aspirational purchase?
The whole Fender vs Squire thing depends on what is important to you. Is a Fender USA Standard Precision 3 times better than a Squire Classics Vibe......... Your opinion, for me... No
But what value is it to go to your guitar cave and see a "made in the USA" Precision or any other model??
How much of the value is in technical construction, how much is in the feeling of playing something you really want/aspirational purchase?
smcd, I don't think your assessment is necessarily wrong but as I understand it, has very little to do with what the OP was asking. Considering the OP, I can't help but interpret your answer as something along the lines of "No, it's not a scam, the additional price won't buy you a much better bass, but it will buy you an american made bass, period."
This is certainly possible, but the next question begged is whether or not that is worth it. This question is unavoidably political, which means we can't discuss it here - and that seems fair considering talkbass is an international site, and you can't expect people like me to take a stand on whether everyone should support American or Asian economies in a friendly discussion about bass guitars.
Martin
- Status
