Is he swinging?

[MultiScaleMale]

Just got an email from Janek's email list that he's taking on Jeff Bezos and Daniel Ek (Amazon / Spotify), obviously click-bait. So, I think I changed my mind from "Does he swing?" to "Does he play something to generate the most clicks?" ... and I've been played. I get it, he's gaming the algorithm like everyone else. Good luck with Bezos/Ek.

 

[Altitude]

How does everyone here define, “swing,” or, “swinging?”

“Swing” is a narrowly defined term, at least in jazz education, referring to treatment of two eighth notes as three triplets with two of them tied.

That part is non-negotiable. But I suppose people use it as a verb to subjectively describe how effectively musicians play that way to create a satisfying end.

But “swing” is at its root about eighth note treatment.

 

[MuseChaser]

“Swing” is a narrowly defined term, at least in jazz education, referring to treatment of two eighth notes as three triplets with two of them tied.

That part is non-negotiable. .

I'm afraid that it is, indeed negotiable, and this long-time jazz educator who started out as a jazz player prior to becoming edjumacated and sheepskinned would like to negotiate it..

That triplet equivalency you detailed is really only accurate at certain tempi. If it was accurate across the board, programs like Sibelius, Finale, et al, wouldn't have the ability to choose the "swing ratio" or "swing proportion" of just how much time to spend on the first and second written eighth notes of each beat.. there'd be no need for it.

A simple exercise to prove my point, for those with access to a sequencing program, Sibelius, Finale, MuseScore, or anything that can change the speed of a recording you already have. Program in a figure in 12/8 time that is a repeated quarter note/eighth note figure (the equivalent of what you describe... a triplet with the first two notes tied together). Use, say, the melody from Donna Lee, or Ornithology, or any other notey bop-head with a lot of running eighth note patters. Play it at a metronome marking of dotted quarter = 110, say (or quarter note, if you've programmed triplets in 4/4 instead of 12/8 time). It'll sound accurate, but still a little weird compared to a good player's version of swing.. the two-to-one ratio rarely sounds EXACTLY right... but OK, close enough here. NOW... set the speed to twice that. It'll sound completely stupid. Nobody plays like that. Vinyl afficianados? Go ahead, play a 33 1/3 record of a medium tempo swing tune at 78. Ignoring the chipmunk affect, the rhythms will sound completely stupid.

"Swing is a triplet feel," "Emphasize 2 and 4," and "Lay back" are all phrases non-jazz players are initially taught, either as legit players dabbling in jazz while pursuing a music education degree, or as young students in public school. While there is a grain of truth to all three statements, they are tools to an end, rather than words to live by. They are vast oversimplifications to introduce concepts that are difficult to comprehend for non-jazzers, that's all. Jazz is something you have to hear to learn. No other way to do it.

 

[Altitude]

I'm afraid that it is, indeed negotiable, and this long-time jazz educator who started out as a jazz player prior to becoming edjumacated and sheepskinned would like to negotiate it..

That triplet equivalency you detailed is really only accurate at certain tempi. If it was accurate across the board, programs like Sibelius, Finale, et al, wouldn't have the ability to choose the "swing ratio" or "swing proportion" of just how much time to spend on the first and second written eighth notes of each beat.. there'd be no need for it.

A simple exercise to prove my point, for those with access to a sequencing program, Sibelius, Finale, MuseScore, or anything that can change the speed of a recording you already have. Program in a figure in 12/8 time that is a repeated quarter note/eighth note figure (the equivalent of what you describe... a triplet with the first two notes tied together). Use, say, the melody from Donna Lee, or Ornithology, or any other notey bop-head with a lot of running eighth note patters. Play it at a metronome marking of dotted quarter = 110, say (or quarter note, if you've programmed triplets in 4/4 instead of 12/8 time). It'll sound accurate, but still a little weird compared to a good player's version of swing.. the two-to-one ratio rarely sounds EXACTLY right... but OK, close enough here. NOW... set the speed to twice that. It'll sound completely stupid. Nobody plays like that. Vinyl afficianados? Go ahead, play a 33 1/3 record of a medium tempo swing tune at 78. Ignoring the chipmunk affect, the rhythms will sound completely stupid.

"Swing is a triplet feel," "Emphasize 2 and 4," and "Lay back" are all phrases non-jazz players are initially taught, either as legit players dabbling in jazz while pursuing a music education degree, or as young students in public school. While there is a grain of truth to all three statements, they are tools to an end, rather than words to live by. They are vast oversimplifications to introduce concepts that are difficult to comprehend for non-jazzers, that's all. Jazz is something you have to hear to learn. No other way to do it.

Your post is a good look at application of the rule I asserted, and the precise definition of three triplets with two of them tied does oversimplify in the application. It’s still the definition, or the essence of it.

Wikipedia says “The term swing, as well as swung note(s) and swung rhythm, is also used more specifically to refer to a technique (most commonly associated with jazz[citation needed] but also used in other genres) that involves alternately lengthening and shortening the first and second consecutive notes in the two part pulse-divisionsin a beat.” That’s probably more precise.

I don’t disagree with your points, other than to point out that extreme tempo (for example) creates technical challenges in playing that result in compromise of the rule. Indeed, some players can “swing hard” at faster tempo than others.

Sometimes it’s useful to illustrate a rule by considering its converse. Is there an example of a song where every player only plays straight 8ths that could reasonably be described as “swung?”

 

[MuseChaser]

..
I don’t disagree with your points, other than to point out that extreme tempo (for example) creates technical challenges in playing that result in compromise of the rule. Indeed, some players can “swing hard” at faster tempo than others.

I appreciate the thoughtful reply, although I still mostly disagree about the rhythmic distortion proportionately between the first and second eighth notes being the determinate factor as to what swing is, although it IS certainly one of the tools in the tool box. Swing is determined more by inflection, stresses, and articulation than it is solely by rhythmic distortion. The technical challenges of fast tempi are not why the rhythmic distortions disappear; believe me, a lot of these cats can do whatever they want technically. The distortions disappear because they sound bad at those tempi.

Sometimes it’s useful to illustrate a rule by considering its converse. Is there an example of a song where every player only plays straight 8ths that could reasonably be described as “swung?”

By way of example, listen to Ahmad's eight notes throughout this cut....



In his solo choruses, you'll almost NEVER hear that two-to-one triplet feel, and lots of times he's playing almost evenly spaced eighth notes, especially as he slips in and out of double time figures. What makes it swing is how he smoothly emphasizes the second eighth note of each beat slightly in his lines. He does play triplets at times of course, but the only time it's a metronomic triplet is when he plays all three notes of the triplet. This tune is at a relaxed tempo, too. Even at this tempo, if he played an exact two-to-one triplet ratio in his lines, he'd sound like a neophyte. It's just not a thing in all but a very narrow niche in the development of swing.

 

[Altitude]

I appreciate the thoughtful reply, although I still mostly disagree about the rhythmic distortion proportionately between the first and second eighth notes being the determinate factor as to what swing is, although it IS certainly one of the tools in the tool box. Swing is determined more by inflection, stresses, and articulation than it is solely by rhythmic distortion. The technical challenges of fast tempi are not why the rhythmic distortions disappear; believe me, a lot of these cats can do whatever they want technically. The distortions disappear because they sound bad at those tempi.





By way of example, listen to Ahmad's eight notes throughout this cut....



In his solo choruses, you'll almost NEVER hear that two-to-one triplet feel, and lots of times he's playing almost evenly spaced eighth notes, especially as he slips in and out of double time figures. What makes it swing is how he smoothly emphasizes the second eighth note of each beat slightly in his lines. He does play triplets at times of course, but the only time it's a metronomic triplet is when he plays all three notes of the triplet. This tune is at a relaxed tempo, too. Even at this tempo, if he played an exact two-to-one triplet ratio in his lines, he'd sound like a neophyte. It's just not a thing in all but a very narrow niche in the development of swing.

I’ll take the second point first - I realize what I’m about to say will sound like I’m creating a new rule on the fly to bolster my position, except that I already introduced this concept back in post #43.

Yes, Ahmad’s 8th notes are straight in those solos. But Fournier is swinging the whole time, so the overall effect is a swung piece where Ahmad was probably playing straight deliberately to create tension, or merely for effect. As I said in post #43, at that level the guys know what the rules are and can safely bend them. Bending a rule doesn’t make it not a rule.

As for your first point…sigh, I suppose. We’re throughly into the esoteric now and definitely beyond the topical level of a Talkbass thread where people clearly unfamiliar with jazz are debating what “swing” means. Nothing you say is inaccurate, you’re just playing the edges of convention in order to support a contrarian point. It would be the same if we were to discuss the definition of bread, I assert that bread is flour, water, and yeast and you assert that in certain Indonesian cultures they use lemon juice and baking soda instead of yeast in what they call “bread.” Not wrong but the generally accepted definition of what bread is doesn’t change for the unique departures one finds in practice.

Generally speaking, swing in jazz is characterized by the rhythmic distortion of, mainly, 8th notes. While there is a career’s worth of pedantry that does indeed indicate that’s too simple to apply in all cases, it’s still the definition.

 

[MuseChaser]

I’ll take the second point first - I realize what I’m about to say will sound like I’m creating a new rule on the fly to bolster my position, except that I already introduced this concept back in post #43.

Yes, Ahmad’s 8th notes are straight in those solos. But Fournier is swinging the whole time, so the overall effect is a swung piece where Ahmad was probably playing straight deliberately to create tension, or merely for effect. As I said in post #43, at that level the guys know what the rules are and can safely bend them. Bending a rule doesn’t make it not a rule.

As for your first point…sigh, I suppose. We’re throughly into the esoteric now and definitely beyond the topical level of a Talkbass thread where people clearly unfamiliar with jazz are debating what “swing” means. Nothing you say is inaccurate, you’re just playing the edges of convention in order to support a contrarian point. It would be the same if we were to discuss the definition of bread, I assert that bread is flour, water, and yeast and you assert that in certain Indonesian cultures they use lemon juice and baking soda in what they call “bread.” Not wrong but the generally accepted definition of what bread is doesn’t change for the unique departures one finds in practice.

Generally speaking, swing in jazz is characterized by the rhythmic distortion of, mainly, 8th notes. While there is a career’s worth of pedantry that does indeed indicate that’s too simple to apply in all cases, it’s still the definition.

Lol... I can deal with that... Except the last four words, to wit, ".. it's still the definition." The vast majority of internet opinions and sites seem to confirm that statement, which further serves to erode my confidence in said internet as a source of informed critical thought. I do understand and accept your points... You are not wrong, and yes, I am being pedantic. It just matters to me, and as an educator it is really difficult to "deprogram" someone who's been taught to play "swing" by following the three statements to which I took exception in one of my earlier posts, rather than spending the bulk of their time listening to the heavies and practicing, trying to cop the real feel.

The swingin-est feel in the world is a perfect quarter note on the ride and a bassist in lock step with it. Everything else is gravy.

Edit: ... Which, I realize, totally seemingly flies in the face of the discussion upon which this thread is based.. there's very few quarter notes to be had. Earlier I said that the bassist did, indeed, swing. Through the lens of this recent tangential discussion, I guess I's be more inclined to characterize the bassist, and ESPECIALLY the drummer, playing more in a shuffle-based hip-hop groove. AND, yes, in this context, you are more correct than I am.

 

[Bob_Ross]

Well...

Irrespective of the title of that video, I will say that A) what Janek is doing in that clip would not be the first example I'd cite if someone asked me for an example of a bassline that "swings" ... but B) I love what Janek is doing in that clip! Precisely because of how overtly he seems to be trying to avoid clichéd "swing" basslines. He's having a dialog with the groove, rather than outlining the groove.

 

[fdeck]

I've had relatively little formal jazz training, but for most traditionally trained players, learning to swing is a hurdle to overcome, as is swinging rhythms that are written as straight 8ths. The "triplet" rule is taught as a starting point for learning to swing because it's easy to grasp and something that everybody can do together in an ensemble and sound OK.

More advanced students are taught, or pick up from listening and playing, that the triplet rule will make your playing sound dated or awkward if applied rigidly. That, or "swing" ended in 1940.

I think if this were a matter of precise definitions, Cheese's question would have answered itself. I think it opens reasonable differences of opinion based on both listening and playing experience. Janek is swinging, or not, relative to what each of us has experienced. Maybe I'm being generous because it does break free from the tricks that we've all learned, and that have become cliches. I can't wait to steal a few of his ideas.

 

[Kaa]

That guy has freakishly long fingers, or he's playing the world's thinnest bass neck.

To the original question, he's too angular for swinging. in the first section. The second section is more in the vein of what I would expect from the term swing.

 

[ElMon]

Swinging but not SWANGIN