Is it the Bass, or the Player...

[BobaFret]

This thread makes me smile.

 

[bassist4dalord]

Is it the car, or the driver?
Is it the food, or the cook?
Is it the paint, or the painter?
Is it the paper/pen, or the author?
Is it the yarn, or the knitter?

These questions go on forever and ever. Mario Andretti can drive an AMC Gremlin and he won't drive like Mario Andretti in a Ferrari 312B. Emeril Lagasse can cook Kraft Macaroni and Cheese, but it won't taste like his "New New Orleans cuisine". Leonardo da Vinci could have painted on cardboard, but it wouldn't look like da Vinci's Mona Lisa painted in oil on poplar.

You get the idea. My belief- to an extent, yes, the player/artist/performer will come through no matter what the quality of the medium may be. However, the quality of the equipment used has a vast and undeniable effect on the outcome. Anyone who says that the quality of the materials used is irrelevant is being ignorant.

IMO, YMMV, IME, IMHO.

Have a nice day

 

[grendle]

Is it the car, or the driver?
Is it the food, or the cook?
Is it the paint, or the painter?
Is it the paper/pen, or the author?
Is it the yarn, or the knitter?

These questions go on forever and ever. Mario Andretti can drive an AMC Gremlin and he won't drive like Mario Andretti in a Ferrari 312B. Emeril Lagasse can cook Kraft Macaroni and Cheese, but it won't taste like his "New New Orleans cuisine". Leonardo da Vinci could have painted on cardboard, but it wouldn't look like da Vinci's Mona Lisa painted in oil on poplar.

You get the idea. My belief- to an extent, yes, the player/artist/performer will come through no matter what the quality of the medium may be. However, the quality of the equipment used has a vast and undeniable effect on the outcome. Anyone who says that the quality of the materials used is irrelevant is being ignorant.

IMO, YMMV, IME, IMHO.

Have a nice day

+100000 What he said...

 

[lucas vigor]

Is it the car, or the driver?
Is it the food, or the cook?
Is it the paint, or the painter?
Is it the paper/pen, or the author?
Is it the yarn, or the knitter?

These questions go on forever and ever. Mario Andretti can drive an AMC Gremlin and he won't drive like Mario Andretti in a Ferrari 312B. Emeril Lagasse can cook Kraft Macaroni and Cheese, but it won't taste like his "New New Orleans cuisine". Leonardo da Vinci could have painted on cardboard, but it wouldn't look like da Vinci's Mona Lisa painted in oil on poplar.

You get the idea. My belief- to an extent, yes, the player/artist/performer will come through no matter what the quality of the medium may be. However, the quality of the equipment used has a vast and undeniable effect on the outcome. Anyone who says that the quality of the materials used is irrelevant is being ignorant.

IMO, YMMV, IME, IMHO.

Have a nice day

Well put! I agree +1,000,000!!!!!!!!!!

 

[AudioDwebe]

Here's a hypothetical for you:

If someone were to give you five different basses, all fretted, from various manufacturers (any five will do, priced comparably) and gave you access to any and all amps, pedals, strings, etcetera, and said, "Make them all sound the same and you get a million bucks."

Would you be a millionaire?

If the answer is yes, I'd argue that it's the player more so than the bass.

If no, then different basses cannot be made to sound alike.

Thoughts?

 

[kshewchuk]

I have seen Les Claypool play whatever basses in a bunch of interviews. And it still sounds like him. The TONE still sounds like his tone, No matter the instrument. Seeing this made me realize its all in the player.

 

[hrbassji]

I have seen Les Claypool play whatever basses in a bunch of interviews. And it still sounds like him. The TONE still sounds like his tone, No matter the instrument. Seeing this made me realize its all in the player.

IDK about that. There is a big difference between Les' Carl Thompsons and his Fender Jazz that he plays sometimes.

I agree with 60% bass, 40% player. You would know it's Claypool playing, but it just sounds slightly different.

 

[Duke21]

So, because we the OP asked for percentages, I propose the following formula:

Sound = Tone * Performance

Looking for consensus, I will offer 40/60 (player/gear) for tone and 90/10 (player/gear) for performance as starting points. Multiplied together we get 3600 over 600, or 6 over 1.

6 to 1 based on the original number being ratios equates to 6 out of 7 in favor of the bass player versus the equipment.

Therefore, the answer to this thread is 85.7% in favor of the player.

Done

Man you lack some serious precision here!! More likely 85.65678 % !!

 

[mongo2]

Or the ability of the player to get his tone from a multitude of instruments. Or that instruments have the ability to sound a lot more alike than different, given the choices made by the player.

Or that my brain's fried and I can't make sense of much at the moment.

Then why doesn't Ed Friedland's tone sound the same on all the instruments in his demo?

 

[Snarf]

Gotta love these noobie questions.

How much of the sound a player gets is from the player himself/herself, and how much is the instrument?

For example: Gary Willis playing anything other than his signature bass, would he still sound like himself through the use of electronics on other basses, or will he sound like someone totally different?

I'm a sax player and even if I were to get the same reed/mouthpiece/ligature/horn combo as Grover Washington, I'll never, ever have the same sound. I might be able to play his licks but would never be mistaken for him. Had he picked up and played a Selmer or Yamaha or whatever, he would still sound like himself.

So I'm guessing it would probably be the same in the wonderful world of the Bass, no?

I guess ultimately, I'm trying to break myself of this habit that I have (as does much of society, in general, I think), where if I really like someone's sound/tone (is there a difference?), I naturally gravitate toward someday getting the same bass to get the same sound.

Intellectually, I understand that Air Jordans will not allow me to ball like Mr. Jordan, but emotionally, it's a totally different ballgame.

So...what say you? The Player or The Bass or a combination? And, if a combination, what percentage would you apply to each?

Thanks for entertaining these childish questions.

Cheers.

Mamoru

Combination. An individual's expression sure is a key factor, but you can't discount the importance of the construction of the instrument. Squier Jazz will sound different than a Fodera with singles and a Pope pre. Instruments are tools, and each grade of tool serves a different market. It would be stupid to say, "Oh you want a really scooped mid range and lots of highs for a Gospel slap sound? Get a BC Rich."

 

[David Jayne]

Mario Andretti can drive an AMC Gremlin and he won't drive like Mario Andretti in a Ferrari 312B. Emeril Lagasse can cook Kraft Macaroni and Cheese, but it won't taste like his "New New Orleans cuisine". Leonardo da Vinci could have painted on cardboard, but it wouldn't look like da Vinci's Mona Lisa painted in oil on poplar.

Mario would drive the wheels off that Gremlin as only Mario can, setting a new street car lap record, the mac and cheese would be the best you ever had, and the piece of cardboard would be worth millions.
:-D

 

[AudioDwebe]

Then why doesn't Ed Friedland's tone sound the same on all the instruments in his demo?

I can only guess, but I would think he'd want that to point out the differences. I'm not aware that he attempted for them to sound alike.

But your guess is as good as mine.

 

[MaccaMan1964]

Oh, c'mon! We ALL know its about the WIRE!!! Ha!

Seriously, though...it really is BOTH - the player AND the set-up. If gear made no difference, there wouldn't be THOUSANDS of different amps, speakers, basses, strings, pick-ups, pedals, etc, etc, etc.

Playing style and sonic characteristics ARE NOT synonymous! I'll leave the ratios up to others...but my guess is 75/25 - player/set-up.

 

[Brad Johnson]

IMHO, tone and articulation are very much tied to player, but embouchure/breath/tongue is different from touch in many ways.

Not the least of these is that after a string has been set in motion, there is less expressive/musical control over it than when a wind instrument is sustaining a pitch—thus the player generally has even greater impact on a wind or bowed instrument—then there are singers!

Should this be in basses?

There can be a lot of control though in how that string is set in motion. Just saying.

 

[lucas vigor]

but the point is, so many talkbassers suscribe to the belief that good materials and good construction don't matter. That a great bassist could make bolsa wood and steel wire sound good under their mighty fingers.

I remember doing a jam session a long time ago where I decided to give up my musicman sterling to another guy while I played guitar. Now, this player sucked bad. really incompetent (we were just jamming for fun) but I was struck by how great my bass sounded through my amp, even with a non-musician playing it. He would hit the E string, and it sounded fat and huge...and quite recordable, even!

In that case, the bass sounded great on it's own. I venture to guess that even if I had a long pole and could tug an open string on that bass from 4 feet away, that open note would have sounded great. My hand position would not matter one bit, since I would not be using it.

Another thing to consider. A lot of the "wood doesn't matter" or "A/B blind test" people say that a $129 dollar bass is indistinguishable from a hi-end Fodera in a band mix....but that band mix always includes heavy distorted guitar and loud cymbals...so how would anyone really know? Of course the differences (in that context) are somewhat minimal. But do the same test with a quiter and more hi-fi oriented style of music (such as smooth jazz) and I guarantee you you can tell the difference between two different instruments.

 

[Brad Johnson]

The problem with that is ... so why many people need a P bass for that, a J bass for that, a Stringray because you know only stringray sound like a stringray, a modern 7 strings bass for that etc ... by your logic you only need a P bass and your finger will let you have all the different tone you could dream of !

If I use a stringray, it will sound like a stringray with my technic, if I use a J bass guess what ... it will sound like a J bass.

I think many people mix things up a little ... sounding good and unique as a lot to do with your note choice, your EQ, your amp, your effects, your bass.

An exemple shall we ? John Myung of Dream Theater had a very different tone when he used the modded Stingray, then another tone with the Spector and then another very different tone with the Yamaha and now with the EBMM Bongo ... but it is always the same guy playing them but the sound recorded is different. How can you explain that the tone is very different but strangly we could tell it is John Myung playing because of his note choice and fetish signature lick ?

It's entirely possible to get all sorts of vibes from the "wrong" bass. For some folks it's less work to just grab the "right tool", which won't require them to do as much to get to wherever the goal line is. That doesn't mean that's the only way to accomplish that... hardly.

You can go after a different sound with a different instrument. You can also get plenty of different sounds from one. It just takes understanding how to achieve what you want. I have plenty of basses that can go from a nice old school P bass thump to a boutique sheen to a jazz bass bite... without touching a knob.

And no, I'm not using mind-controlled modeling either.

 

[Brad Johnson]

but the point is, so many talkbassers suscribe to the belief that good materials and good construction don't matter. That a great bassist could make bolsa wood and steel wire sound good under their mighty fingers.

I remember doing a jam session a long time ago where I decided to give up my musicman sterling to another guy while I played guitar. Now, this player sucked bad. really incompetent (we were just jamming for fun) but I was struck by how great my bass sounded through my amp, even with a non-musician playing it. He would hit the E string, and it sounded fat and huge...and quite recordable, even!

In that case, the bass sounded great on it's own. I venture to guess that even if I had a long pole and could tug an open string on that bass from 4 feet away, that open note would have sounded great. My hand position would not matter one bit, since I would not be using it.

Another thing to consider. A lot of the "wood doesn't matter" or "A/B blind test" people say that a $129 dollar bass is indistinguishable from a hi-end Fodera in a band mix....but that band mix always includes heavy distorted guitar and loud cymbals...so how would anyone really know? Of course the differences (in that context) are somewhat minimal. But do the same test with a quiter and more hi-fi oriented style of music (such as smooth jazz) and I guarantee you you can tell the difference between two different instruments.

I see a lot of holes in this, maybe I should just leave it at that.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Here's a hypothetical for you:

If someone were to give you five different basses, all fretted, from various manufacturers (any five will do, priced comparably) and gave you access to any and all amps, pedals, strings, etcetera, and said, "Make them all sound the same and you get a million bucks."

Would you be a millionaire?

If the answer is yes, I'd argue that it's the player more so than the bass.

If no, then different basses cannot be made to sound alike.

Thoughts?

Yes, I'd be a millionaire. I'd put flats on all of the basses and play them all through a vintage 70's Walkman.

 

[David Jayne]

For example: Gary Willis playing anything other than his signature bass, would he still sound like himself through the use of electronics on other basses, or will he sound like someone totally different?

In all of our arguing, we need to remember what the OP's question actually was.

 

[BioDriver]

Here's a hypothetical for you:

If someone were to give you five different basses, all fretted, from various manufacturers (any five will do, priced comparably) and gave you access to any and all amps, pedals, strings, etcetera, and said, "Make them all sound the same and you get a million bucks."

Would you be a millionaire?

If the answer is yes, I'd argue that it's the player more so than the bass.

If no, then different basses cannot be made to sound alike.

Thoughts?

Access to every amp and pedal makes it way, WAY too easy. Plug into an Orange amp, run enough digital pedals to make a 1950s scientist grin ear to ear, and BAM.

It's a combination of player, bass, strings, and amplification. Obviously two basses can sound different - compare a single coil P bass to an MTD or Warrior. If Duck Dunn were to play one of his basses with flats and then play the same bass with rounds it would sound different. If Victor Wooten were to play a Monarch through his Hartke rig and then play the same bass through an Orange rig it would sound different. You could still tell it's the same person playing but it would have a different voice. Alternatively, if I were to play a J bass through an SWR rig and Nathan East were to play with the same bass and amp it would sound the same but you could tell it was played by different people.

Can you dig it?