I think the most important thing is that someone critcizes his playing otherwise he may not know were he is going wrong.
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Is my friend Stupid?
- Thread starter Florida17
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People with no training in music yet are great musicians (or even good, for that matter) are by far the exceptions and not the rule. The vast majority of musicians who noodle around and reject learning usually end up sticking their instruments under their bed until they sell them. Is it possible to be a great musician without getting some training? Sure. But not bloody likely, and if it happens, it's all because of innate talent.
I had bass lessons in highschool and, I remember only some of it (that was ions ago 
)
I also took a couple of music theory classes in college recently. The music theory helps to understand how songs and music parts are constructed, but it does little to help with the physical aspects of playing the bass.
Noodling on the bass for 2-5 hours per day does a lot to build right hand and left hand coordination. It also is a good way to become familiar with the fretboard both for developing musical phrases and tone.
He can always take lessons and learn theory later, when he feels that he is ready to do so. Because, unless he is really ready to learn those things, it wont do him much good.
)I also took a couple of music theory classes in college recently. The music theory helps to understand how songs and music parts are constructed, but it does little to help with the physical aspects of playing the bass.
Noodling on the bass for 2-5 hours per day does a lot to build right hand and left hand coordination. It also is a good way to become familiar with the fretboard both for developing musical phrases and tone.
He can always take lessons and learn theory later, when he feels that he is ready to do so. Because, unless he is really ready to learn those things, it wont do him much good.
Life experience. How many great musicians do you know in your personal life who haven't had any formal training at all? I can count the ones I know on one hand.
Skimmed through the new pages of posts here. Some comments:
I don't know a single self-taught musician that is as good and versatile a musician as the professional musicians I know. If you only do your own thing all the time, skills you've obtained by doodling around might be enough, but if you want to get hired as a musician for someone else's project or band, you're not going to reach far with those skills.
Sounding good is a different thing from being a good overall musician. You can be an amateur and in some cases sound as good as a pro with 100 times more experience than you, but you won't be as versatile a musician, and likely not as creative either.
Don't let theory be a limiting factor, instead use it to communicate and to explain phenomenons in the music. Let your ears tell you what's good and what's not. There's mostly a theoretical way to explain why something strange sound good, although you might not know the reason.
I've never understood how notes on a piece of paper can be music. It becomes music when you play it, and whether it sounds good or not depends on how you interpret it. This is where "putting soul into the music" comes in. It's the artistic thing, that is harder to teach and analyze than the strict technical skills. In the auditions to American Idol and similar shows, you always see some people that might sing perfectly in tune, but it sounds horrible because they lack the skills to put soul in it. It's how you interpret the song that makes it enjoyable or not to listen to.
Technique can be taught. Artistic skills are much harder, while not impossible, to teach. When people put "soul" into the music, it's the artistic skills that shines through. But to fully express what you want to say as artist, you need good technique. The best way to learn technique is with a good teacher, IME.
I don't know a single self-taught musician that is as good and versatile a musician as the professional musicians I know. If you only do your own thing all the time, skills you've obtained by doodling around might be enough, but if you want to get hired as a musician for someone else's project or band, you're not going to reach far with those skills.
Sounding good is a different thing from being a good overall musician. You can be an amateur and in some cases sound as good as a pro with 100 times more experience than you, but you won't be as versatile a musician, and likely not as creative either.
Don't let theory be a limiting factor, instead use it to communicate and to explain phenomenons in the music. Let your ears tell you what's good and what's not. There's mostly a theoretical way to explain why something strange sound good, although you might not know the reason.
I've never understood how notes on a piece of paper can be music. It becomes music when you play it, and whether it sounds good or not depends on how you interpret it. This is where "putting soul into the music" comes in. It's the artistic thing, that is harder to teach and analyze than the strict technical skills. In the auditions to American Idol and similar shows, you always see some people that might sing perfectly in tune, but it sounds horrible because they lack the skills to put soul in it. It's how you interpret the song that makes it enjoyable or not to listen to.
Technique can be taught. Artistic skills are much harder, while not impossible, to teach. When people put "soul" into the music, it's the artistic skills that shines through. But to fully express what you want to say as artist, you need good technique. The best way to learn technique is with a good teacher, IME.
If someone starts playing by ear, eventually one day, if he/she is interested enough, they will go tha path they like. I see a line here in all these "learning to play" threads, and there are so many of you who just have to mix up "earning money" into the picture. What if someone learns to play because it's fun, and don't give a **** about becoming Mr. Sessions Smooth and don't care about being hired at all, but instead just wants to play music and have a good time?
Then there's a chance they will become good creative players, without being aware of any theory etc. just by pure kicks out of the fun of playing, energy, pure clean joy, without a single thought about money....
To take a very "by the book" example, look att Jaco, he did not learn to read from the start, yet he has done more for the bass world than most of us ever will...
D.Don
Then there's a chance they will become good creative players, without being aware of any theory etc. just by pure kicks out of the fun of playing, energy, pure clean joy, without a single thought about money....
To take a very "by the book" example, look att Jaco, he did not learn to read from the start, yet he has done more for the bass world than most of us ever will...
D.Don
If someone starts playing by ear, eventually one day, if he/she is interested enough, they will go tha path they like. I see a line here in all these "learning to play" threads, and there are so many of you who just have to mix up "earning money" into the picture. What if someone learns to play because it's fun, and don't give a **** about becoming Mr. Sessions Smooth and don't care about being hired at all, but instead just wants to play music and have a good time?
Then there's a chance they will become good creative players, without being aware of any theory etc. just by pure kicks out of the fun of playing, energy, pure clean joy, without a single thought about money....
To take a very "by the book" example, look att Jaco, he did not learn to read from the start, yet he has done more for the bass world than most of us ever will...
D.Don
Reading isn't understanding theory and vica versa. Yeah it's all nice if you want to be a feel player but you pretty much have to accept the limitations that go with it and that is not necessarily a financial statement. It's a fallacy that people that play "by feel" have more creativity than people that understand theory on some level.
Theory is a source of conceptual development and creativity in itself. It gives a frame of reference for ideas so that they can be communicated and analysed. I would think that Jaco Pastorius would be the last person to think that you can do more with less knowledge.
Jaco was one of the most learned people to ever play an instrument. And while he did teach himself, he taught himself the right way and was extremely disciplined about it, to the point of practicing and studying every waking moment possible. Not a great example if you're trying to extoll the virtues of not learning theory.
Agreed.
It's kind of funny when people refer to people like Pastorius as being self taught, they are under the presumption that that meant he didn't really have a good understanding of theory. The truth is, as I said before that being self taught just means self guided learning, not a lack of knowledge.
I'd like to see ANY statistics to the contrary.
Before anyone brings up Jimi, he was a very good player as a backup guy with curtis knight and such, and did a LITTLE about what he was doing, he never claimed he didn't know anything, just in the grand scehme of things, he knew what he knew and that was about it.
This is like the same argument for people who 100% have an original voice, its a very bold claim, in a pure sense I don't think its truly possible to not know jack about theory and be able to hang with a random good player and float. any instances where someone claims otherwise, I am making a claim that we would really have to analyze if this person a) can really float without much instruction and b) really has no training, even self training which I did a lot for myself.
To say that someone can 'jam' decent and not a single scale, personally, i think it goes back to how well we think they are jamming.
As for reading, I used to do it on trombone and tuba all the time, when I first picked up bass, I didn't read a single note for 10 or so years, and yes I did play some fairly complex stuff. However, just couldn't get the notes right for Teen Town, so what the hell, occassionally you gotta put some effort
Playing by ear is a great skill to have. But don't you think it's easier if you know the notes?
to be fair, I don't necessarily see why playing by ear means you aren't getting the right notes. As I stated, Teen Town, yes you'll probbly miss some. 80% of popular music, no.
But he did not learn the theory from the start, that was my point.
If you pickup an instrument and find it's fun, the first thing you do, is not opening a tuition book and start to do the exercises, the first thing you do, is try to play it, and if you have a music ear, you just play...
THEN
when you have all the energy and curiosity needed to motivate yourself to move on, you might choose to pick up a tutor or/and a book or two and take it from there...
(As far as I have understood, Jaco did not know theory or reading from the start, he just played in a band and had to learn them songs to get around).
D.Don
Wasn't my point. I'm saying that if you know the notes and scales and stuff, it does make it easier to use your ear. It doesn't mean you can't do it, but it definitely makes it easier.
Reading AND playing by ear is a fantastic combo, but if you start playing, as the dude we talk about in this thread is doing, I can see the point with learning by ear, at this early stage.
D.Don
Lets just say this I've been playing for 8-9 years now took lessions for a year and I would say I'm not that great at bass but I'm trying and I know my way around the neck. But I see your local Joe Schmoe playing some crazy stuff after only 6 months of picking one up. Part of it has to do with the person, how much time they dedicate to practicing and what or how they practice. So I can understand what your friend is saying because I really only learned from one book and didn't really even get that far in chord progressions.
Amen! Although this doesn't happen with all trained musicians... it would have with me! I'm not the kind of guy who can disect an art (music), study the different aspects of it, blah blah blah. To me that would be like trying to teach someone to make love, to have passion. I'm a scientist at my day job, so I can see the difference clearly between science and art. I've never, repeat NEVER played to a metronome. I've played with human drummers since day one, though...very lucky I know. I've never been without a band to play with, 'cause I play from my heart with emotions as my guide. For me, that's where it's at!
