Is my friend Stupid?

[lamarjones]

Wasn't my point. I'm saying that if you know the notes and scales and stuff, it does make it easier to use your ear. It doesn't mean you can't do it, but it definitely makes it easier.

I see.

You know, being familiar with what a flat seven versus a major seven sounds like, and a flat 3 versus a major 3, that REALLY does help in using your hear.

 

[lomo]

Sure it is possible, but it's a big risk that he:

...learns bad technique that might be hazardous and hard to get rid of
...won't learn anything that helps him communicate with other musicians (the names of the keys, chords, note names, scales, modes etc.)
...learn things 100 times slower than he would with a teacher, and run into walls regularly
...won't practice with a metronome and build up a good timing

.

+10

 

[bassdaddy5]

I've been playing for 20 years.( Where does the time go?) I have never had a lesson. Do I think I'm great? No. Do I still love playing after 20 years? You bet!! I do think it is important to learn the fret board notes as well as the basic blues scale. (See, I don't even know the proper name of the scale) For me, just playing in bands and watching the guitar players hand to recognize the chords. If he plays a G or a C etc. I also had to buy Rush's moving pictures 3 times on cassette because I kept wearing them out. Play, stop, rewind about a million times. Thank god for the invention of Compact disc. Learning this way will give you a great ear. What's right for some may not be right for others. If your friend enjoys what he's doing, isn't that all that really matters.

 

[not_jason]

To answer this question with any kind of accuracy, I'd really have to know the person in question.

I learned bass (and guitar later) entirely by myself, first by noodling around, and eventually collecting stray bits of information that came my way until I had a working grasp of theory, which grew from there. There are wholes in my knowledge, but they are primarily issues of semantics. For example, I understand and know all my modes even if I forget their names, and I know a lot of concepts in practice that I can't necessarily properly explain in terms of hard theory. This is all stuff I'm working on. Every year I feel like my grasp of music solidifies substantially, and I'm proud of the fact that I did it all without a teacher and without a class.

So yes, I think it's entirely possible to get good without instruction, but you have to be motivated, and to an extent you have to be lucky. In my case, I was lucky to be surrounded by musicians who regularly talked about the science. I just listened quietly and absorbed as much as I could so I could take it home and mess around with it. I was lucky enough to care to learn what was happening with music, and lucky enough to get the information I got in a correct order and at a correct rate that allowed me to actually use it. Eventually I learned more still by playing along with other musicians and by trying and failing at a handful of things.

And you can say that I would have been better off with a teacher, but I'm not sure that's the case. Even though I think theory is a valuable tool, and proper technique is considered such for a good reason, I don't think I could have learned it unless by trying and failing, and doing things at my rate when I felt like doing it. It's just my personality. I'm too stubborn to let anyone tell me what my assumptions should be, regardless of their credentials. I need to try every possible bad idea first, and know for a fact that they don't work. And I actually think that the actual quality of my learning has some advantages because of it.

HOWEVER...

I have been blue in the face trying to get some self taught musicians I know to take their work seriously. Some people don't ever find motivation to learn the ins and outs of it, and if that's how it is, that's just how it is. And while he may learn some concepts informally that help him similarly to theory, he might never progress even to the level of a 3 month piano lesson veteran. There's no way to tell without actually knowing the guy.

One thing's for sure, though. If he doesn't find the motivation by himself to learn (either by really driving himself or by taking lessons), he's probably not going to. And you can't really do much about that. But also, if he's having fun, there's no reason you should mind. Music is serious business for some of us, but some of us just like to mess around, and that's cool too.

 

[bassdaddy5]

Well said Not Jason

 

[SuperDuck]

To those who have contributed thus far in the thread:

Have you ever played in a really good jazz combo where everyone really knows what they're doing? I mean, people who really have their stuff together - people that have actually studied that evil, evil theory.

At that point, there's a combination of listening skills and music knowledge that truly lets people communicate without talking.

When you have a group of people that have the knowledge to know not only what they're doing but what everyone else is doing and how to react to it, it's a beautiful thing and hard to describe. Once you've played with musicians who are well versed in theory, you might find yourself spoiled and frustrated when you have to spell everything out for people who are really, really good and noodling.

I've played in too many bands where we'll say something simple and fundamental like laying out the changes in a I-IV-V format and having the guitar player not have a clue as to what we're talking about. Then we have to take him by the hand, explain to him what we're doing, and show it to him step by step, and then being able to play. Stuff like that pisses me off. People need to learn to play their instrument, not wear it.

 

[Jimbow]

I never took lessons, but know basic theory.

I have picked up a book or two, however, and am learning more. I never read sheet music, but I'd like to be able to communicate better with other band members. However, it is definately possible to play without theory, as I've been playing in my current blues trio for quite some time without a problem.

For some people, I think that theory is a really good thing. I do know a couple people, though, that are really held back by their knowledge. They always follow the "rules" (for example, when playing in G, they'll only play 3rd fret 1st string and 5th fret 3rd string.) For those people, it would be more beneficial to just let it flow out a little bit, even if they don't know exactly what they're playing. As long as it sounds good.

It all depends on what you can do with your knowledge. If you can learn and use it creatively, great, but if you plan on sticking exactly to the "rules" you're better off not restricting yourself.

 

[SuperDuck]

I do know a couple people, though, that are really held back by their knowledge. They always follow the "rules" (for example, when playing in G, they'll only play 3rd fret 1st string and 5th fret 3rd string.) For those people, it would be more beneficial to just let it flow out a little bit, even if they don't know exactly what they're playing. As long as it sounds good.

What you're describing is not someone is being "held back by the rules", it's someone that "doesn't know enough about the rules".

No one gets "held back" by learning music theory. No one will get "artistically impeded" by learning music theory. Jazz musicians, in my opinion, are the most soulful, musical, artistic musicians that you will find and they have to be absolute monsters when it comes to theory.

They don't get to be good at jazz by just "letting it flow", they get good by learning their **** backwards and forwards until they don't have to think about it - THEN they let it flow. They MASTER music theory to the point that they don't have to think.

Most people don't want to think in the first place, though. It's much easier.

 

[the_hook]

From my limited time playing drums (months) and with my next step to get a bass guitar and learn that, here are a few things I've experienced:

Music is notation used for a set of instructions. How many people do you know that can fix an engine or build something, without ever reading instructions? They have a general idea of what they need (tools, parts) and how to put them together, and time after time they get the job done. For some of those poeple that is enough, for others they will eventually seek out reading material (or a teacher) to expand their knowledge further, filling in gaps, or putting names to things they already knew. They may want to meet others and need to learn to communicate those instructions. If they keep to themselves, whatever form of instructional understanding they have is enough for them to keep going, alone.

Others have to have instructions in front of them or they can't build or fix anything. As I've learned to read drum music, and I've pushed myself to take various new pieces and learn them, the drumming always comes out wooden and mechanical. I'm playing what's on paper but there's no 'soul' to it. Only after I infuse whatever talent I have, once I've understood the piece, does the music come to life. Once I understand what the piece 'should' sound like do I find the groove and get totally into the music.

Jamming with my friend has opened up a lot of avenues. We can do a 20 minute jam where I can play complex arrangements, but if I saw them on paper I'd be totally stumped. For those songs I go totally by feel and emotion. If he does a wild riff that moves me I look inward to what feels right on the drums. Listening to our latest jam CD I'm amazed at how well I found the right combination of patterns to compliment those changing riffs. But don't ask me to write that music down, I wouldn't know where to start.

In the end, if a person wants to end up in a studio or band and be able to communicate with his peers, it doesn't really matter if he played by ear for months. They'll soon realize where they are decifient (reading and understanding music) and will seek out how to fill in those gaps.

 

[Ten Four One]

Agreed.

It's kind of funny when people refer to people like Pastorius as being self taught, they are under the presumption that that meant he didn't really have a good understanding of theory. The truth is, as I said before that being self taught just means self guided learning, not a lack of knowledge.

I thought Jaco was yet another in the long line of bassists who also played trumpet & he took his good trumpet playing ear, and fundamental understanding of the overtone series to bass, which is why he played all those harmonics. Jaco may or may not be self taught, but he certainly wasn't a guy who "doodled" on his bass without ever studying a single lick of theory.

 

[HT Paul]

If he's having fun, what does it matter?

Not everyone is in it to become a virtuso, some folks could care less about even becomeing passable.

In time he may get bored with noodleing, and come to seek things out higher training on his own. But if that day never comes, so what, just as long as he's having a good time.

 

[D.Don]

I thought Jaco was yet another in the long line of bassists who also played trumpet & he took his good trumpet playing ear, and fundamental understanding of the overtone series to bass, which is why he played all those harmonics. Jaco may or may not be self taught, but he certainly wasn't a guy who "doodled" on his bass without ever studying a single lick of theory.

If we refer to the material where he self describes his early stages of bass playing (and this is what we are talking about, a guy just learning to play bass, see first post), of course the material that is available to the public (videos, books etc.) , Jaco says himself "I just picked up the bass and learned most of it by looking and listening, looking at what other people where playing on the bass, and listening to lots of different music and playing along with it"...


D.Don

 

[Alan Vorse]

I thought Jaco was yet another in the long line of bassists who also played trumpet & he took his good trumpet playing ear, and fundamental understanding of the overtone series to bass, which is why he played all those harmonics. Jaco may or may not be self taught, but he certainly wasn't a guy who "doodled" on his bass without ever studying a single lick of theory.

Jaco started as a drummer. You might be thinking of Flea?

 

[Alan Vorse]

If someone starts playing by ear, eventually one day, if he/she is interested enough, they will go tha path they like. I see a line here in all these "learning to play" threads, and there are so many of you who just have to mix up "earning money" into the picture. What if someone learns to play because it's fun, and don't give a **** about becoming Mr. Sessions Smooth and don't care about being hired at all, but instead just wants to play music and have a good time?

Most of the original projects I was in ended up COSTING me money and all so I could play in a crappy bar at 12 in the morning on a Tuesday. Being a working bass player is allowing me to take my wife on a vacation to New York this year.

I also currently am working with a brilliant songwriter who is letting me write my own basslines to his songs and it is very rewarding.

By the way. Having a broad knowledge of theory has helped in both situations.

 

[lonote]

I'm somebody who has been playing for more than 40 years and has never had a lesson. What I did do, though, was learn songs from the radio, records, etc. That is far different than just sitting around noodling (which to me means playing pointlessly). I think lessons and education are the BEST way to go, you learn the right way. Could somebody be a competent self-taught neurosurgeon? Maybe, but I don't think I'd risk them operating on me.

 

[Ten Four One]

Jaco started as a drummer. You might be thinking of Flea?

Strange. I know Flea was a trumpet player, but I thought for sure Jaco was too... I must be thinking of someone else.

I'm somebody who has been playing for more than 40 years and has never had a lesson. What I did do, though, was learn songs from the radio, records, etc. That is far different than just sitting around noodling (which to me means playing pointlessly). I think lessons and education are the BEST way to go, you learn the right way. Could somebody be a competent self-taught neurosurgeon? Maybe, but I don't think I'd risk them operating on me.

Theory is just a reverse-engineered dictionary, the same way a grammar book is reverse engineered from actual language. Saying that theory is the be-all, end-all bothers me in the same way people saying "That's not a real word because it's not in the dictionary" bothers me. People forget that language is a living thing & that dictionaries are static and are only pale imitations of the real thing.

Learning music theory is learning to conjugate verbs in a foreign language, playing good music with decent musicians is like having discourse in that language. They're very much related, but they're not the same thing.

Mind you - I'm a big proponent of learning theory. I'm just against the idea that it's the only way.

 

[lamarjones]

Theory is just a reverse-engineered dictionary, the same way a grammar book is reverse engineered from actual language. Saying that theory is the be-all, end-all bothers me in the same way people saying "That's not a real word because it's not in the dictionary" bothers me. People forget that language is a living thing & that dictionaries are static and are only pale imitations of the real thing.
.

actually, we are on a twelve note system, that is NOT the first music system ever, and yes there are some reasons why its twelve notes and the relation ships among them. this is a whole different topic, but unless you have a different instrument or play with ethnic instruments and ethnic music, your whole basis in music is actually pretty well thought out, NOT reverse engineered.

 

[Captain_Arrrg]

...learns bad technique that might be hazardous and hard to get rid of
...won't learn anything that helps him communicate with other musicians (the names of the keys, chords, note names, scales, modes etc.)
...learn things 100 times slower than he would with a teacher, and run into walls regularly
...won't practice with a metronome and build up a good timing

...Poor technique can be taught as well...
...I agree that there are some really dense people out there who won't know what you're talking about if you don't speak their language...
...This is a mater of motivation & tenacity. A person who plays without instruction for 2-3 hours a day vs. a person who only plays for an hour a week at his/her lesson...
...Another thing that can be learned by just playing...

Two other points:

1) Does it really matter? Really? If you figure out a scale on your own you're still self taught right? There was a time when there was no music theory, does that mean there were no musicians? If the alphabet disappeared would language stop?

2) Is anyone even reading this, or like me did you find something on the first page to respond to?

 

[tZer]

So what does that mean? are you saying its possible for him to be a good bass player without books or learning even one chord?

True story

I was a sophomore in high school. I had been playing electric bass for about a year. I have formal music training on piano, violin, upright bass and trombone. I know (and knew) how to sight read, improvise over chords and some basic music theory.

That said, I was still very green on electric bass. I wasn't super confident and played what I considered to be very typical, square, uninteresting solos that basically consisted of hitting the root and playing what basically amounted to random notes within the key.

Henry, on the other hand, was a smokin' bass player! He could slap like Stanley, solo like Jaco, but he couldn't read a single note or understand changes.

We both were auditioning for the jazz band. I went in, did my sight reading (adequately - nothing super impressive, but I hit the changes, played the unison parts, stayed in time - made it through). I did my weak-ass solo and played the other pieces that were required and were given out weeks before in the form of sheet music.

Henry was next. I stood outside the door waiting for the slaughter to begin but he didn't even get to start. Right off the bat, Mr. B said, "OK, Henry... Open the folder on the stand and play the first piece."

Henry said, "Mr. B. I can't read music."

Mr. B... "Next!"

I got the gig.

 

[Captain_Arrrg]

True story....

Never once have I told the gatekeeper to a gig that I was in jazz band.

Now I've read and responded to something not on the front page!