Is the melodic Minor scale diatonic?

[mambo4]

Just continuing this discussion with a more accurate thread title
I am curious what other musicians and teachers think

I always thought diatonic meant some permutation of the major scale WWHWWWH pattern and the harmony and modes derived from it. This Jives with what I read on Wikipedia and Other sources. But it seems there are published music theory books that appear to state otherwise. If my understanding is wrong, that is news to me.

What's your thoughts? bonus for citations.

 

[FatStringer52]

I voted carrots. Primarily because I think what you are witnessing is the evolution of a musical term.

By strict definition, "diatonic" is as you describe above. With that said, a much looser definition has taken hold in the vernacular among musicians. For instance, the following is taken from the Wiki page for "Diatonic and chromatic." - Diatonic and chromatic - Wikipedia

"These terms may mean different things in different contexts. Very often, diatonic refers to musical elements derived from the modes and transpositions of the "white note scale" C–D–E–F–G–A–B. In some usages it includes all forms of heptonic scale that are in common use in Western music (the major, and all forms of the minor)."

And also, under the heading Modern Meanings (same Wiki page) . . .

"Exclusive" usage. Some writers consistently classify the other variants of the minor scale – the melodic minor (ascending form) and the harmonic minor – as non-diatonic, since they are not transpositions of the white-note pitches of the piano. Among such theorists there is no agreed general term that encompasses the major and all forms of the minor scale.

"Inclusive" usage. Some writers consistently include the melodic and harmonic minor scales as diatonic also. For this group, every scale standardly used in common practice music and much similar later music is either diatonic (the major, and all forms of the minor) or chromatic.

"Mixed" usage. Still other writers mix these two meanings of diatonic (and conversely for chromatic), and this can lead to confusions and misconceptions. Sometimes context makes the intended meaning clear.

My textbook used the following when addressing minor tonality (read the 2 paragraphs under the Minor Scale section)

And the textbook is . . .

I don't know what, or if, there is a solution other than the speaker and listener have to be on the same page, so to speak. The speaker should specify how they are using the term, and if they don't, then the listener should ask.

 

[SteveCS]

Just continuing this discussion with a more accurate thread title
I am curious what other musicians and teachers think

I always thought diatonic meant some permutation of the major scale WWHWWWH pattern and the harmony and modes derived from it. This Jives with what I read on Wikipedia and Other sources. But it seems there are published music theory books that appear to state otherwise. If my understanding is wrong, that is news to me.

What's your thoughts? bonus for citations.

Unfortunately I think you might need to change the options in the survey as the correct answer is not there. The word Diatonic means 'of the key'. In the minor key, that includes all 9* notes. The only non-diatonic intervals from the tonic are the m9, M3, #4 and b5.

From 'Harmony, New Edition, Annie O. Warburton, Longman, 1938/1979':

From 'The AB Guide to Music Theory, Part 1, Eric Taylor, ABRSM, 1994':

From the 'Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music, Michael Kennedy, Oxford University Press, 1980':

* For the purposes of counting, include both the major and minor 6th and 7th.

By strict definition, "diatonic" is as you describe above. With that said, a much looser definition has taken hold in the vernacular among musicians.

I don't believe the definition of diatonic has ever been constrained to the major scale interval pattern. If anything that would be the more vernacular use, IMHO.

I know language and usage change over time, but I see your book also states the major and minor 6th and 7th as diatonic. Thats 4 quotes from formal texts. I think 4 quotes from text going back over 80 years raises something out of the vernacular and the implication of something informal or non-academic.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Steve (plus, Don Kasper) has answered that question correctly in very simple words.

Here is a longer explanation about the Diatonic theory/scales definition.
From "Diatonic Theory".Chapter 1.

The four most privileged 7-tone sets are the same with respect to contradictions,
since they have none, however, they can be distinguished according to the two other
heteromorphisms, ambiguity and di↵erence. The diatonic, for example, has only
a single instance of ambiguity, that of the tritone, since s(FB) = s(BF) = 6, but
g(FB) 6= g(BF), since g(FB) = 3 and g(BF) = 4. Each of the four other privileged
sets has at least 10 ambiguities. Rahn’s Figure 4 (p. 38) lists the contractions,
ambiguities, and di↵erences for all 7-note collections. For convenience, I will define
the heteromorphic profile of a set to be the ordered triple (c, a, d), where c counts
the number of contradictions, a the number of ambiguities and d the number of [37]
di↵erences of a set. As Rahn’s Figure 4 shows, these are the profiles for the four
7-note sets that are free of contradictions:
7-35 (0,1,56)
7-34 (0,10,72)
7-33 (0,35, 80)
7-32 (0,18,82)


In musical set theory, Allen Forte classifies diatonic scales as set form 7–35. That's the beginning understanding of DIATONIC SCALES.
Later, theorists have added three more 7-note sets (see above) as DIATONIC.

Here is the web-site to generate Dr. Forte code:

SetFinder

 

[mambo4]

Fascinating, I’d always assumed that diatonic basically meant no accidentals. always thought of harmonic and melodic minor as artificial modifications to a diatonic key, and things like the modes of melodic minor as decidedly non diatonic. So I guess I must revise my understanding of diatonic to be the modes and chords of the major, natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor scales.

 

[Malcolm35]

I just took for grated diatonic was of the scale, or chord progression.. If the notes are from a specific scale your playing diatonically. But I am self taught....

 

[SteveCS]

Fascinating, I’d always assumed that diatonic basically meant no accidentals. always thought of harmonic and melodic minor as artificial modifications to a diatonic key, and things like the modes of melodic minor as decidedly non diatonic. So I guess I must revise my understanding of diatonic to be the modes and chords of the major, natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor scales.

Ths chords are the most interesting part , IMHO. Other than the tonic i chord, every degree has two possible triads (forget about 7ths for now).
2 can be diminished or minor (it's 5th is the minor or major 6th) : B,D,F or B,D,F#
3 can be Major or Augmented (it's 5th is the minor or major 7th) : C,E,G or C,E,G#
4 can be Minor or Major (it's 3rd is the minor or major 6th) : D,F,A or D,F#,A
5 can be Minor or Major (it's 3rd is the minor or major 7th) : E,G,B or E,G#,B
6 can be Major or Diminished (it's root is the minor or major 6th) : F,A,C or F#,A,C
7 can be Major or Diminished (it's root is the minor or major 7th) : G,B,D or G#,B,D

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Fascinating, I’d always assumed that diatonic basically meant no accidentals. always thought of harmonic and melodic minor as artificial modifications to a diatonic key, and things like the modes of melodic minor as decidedly non diatonic. So I guess I must revise my understanding of diatonic to be the modes and chords of the major, natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor scales.

If it helps, think of "diatonic" as meaning related to a key rather than to a key signature or to one or more scales. A key signature is just a notational convenience. So the fact that you have to use accidentals, as these things are usually notated, doesn't matter. Even if you used no key sig at all and notated everything with accidentals, the minor and major 6 and the minor and major 7 would still be diatonic to the minor key.

 

[FatStringer52]

Ths chords are the most interesting part , IMHO. Other than the tonic i chord, every degree has two possible triads (forget about 7ths for now).
2 can be diminished or minor (it's 5th is the minor or major 6th) : B,D,F or B,D,F#
3 can be Major or Augmented (it's 5th is the minor or major 7th) : C,E,G or C,E,G#
4 can be Minor or Major (it's 3rd is the minor or major 6th) : D,F,A or D,F#,A
5 can be Minor or Major (it's 3rd is the minor or major 7th) : E,G,B or E,G#,B
6 can be Major or Diminished (it's root is the minor or major 6th) : F,A,C or F#,A,C
7 can be Major or Diminished (it's root is the minor or major 7th) : G,B,D or G#,B,D

Had not thought about it in this much detail, but this is a really great approach. Thanks.

 

[SteveCS]

Had not thought about it in this much detail, but this is a really great approach. Thanks.

Another thing, when you add the 7ths on, is that there are two 'dominant' 7th chords in the minor key. Obviously the actual dominant V can be V7, since that is the purpose of the leading tone. But also, by using the minor 7th as root, VII takes the same interval stack as a dominant 7th chord. Sometimes annotated as bVII7, it is the same chord as V7 of the relative major key - in keys A Minor and C Major, the VII7 and V7 chords respectively are the same G7.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

So I guess I must revise my understanding of diatonic to be the modes and chords of the major, natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor scales.

You have just left a "small/er camp of purists" who say that a diatonic scale has to have seven notes and have two half steps and five whole step intervals,
and joined a big group of musicians who has a broader view of a diatonic scale as being in a key.

 

[SteveCS]

You have just left a "small/er camp of purists" who say that a diatonic scale has to have seven notes and have two half steps and five whole step intervals,
and joined a big group of musicians who has a broader view of a diatonic scale as being in a key.

I'm not even sure about the diatonic scale. I prefer to think of groups of notes as diatonic, i.e. belonging to the key. Those notes, or subsets of them, can be grouped together in order of pitch to form one or more scales.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Those notes, or subsets of them, can be grouped together in order of pitch to form one or more scales.

Sometimes, a pop/rock song could have a "double-tonic" complex or include an example of "sectional tonality".
Ex.: "Good Day Sunshine".

The song uses the keys of A major and D major. Following a four-bar introduction, it opens with the chorus...

The chords used in the introduction (E throughout) and chorus (B, F♯, E and E7) suggest a key of B major.
In musicologist Walter Everett's description, however, the B chord "reveals itself to be the V of V of A" once the verse is heard for the first time.
The key change to D major occurs midway through the second verse, for the piano solo.
(Plus, there is a temp section of C major tonality - WUTP.)

Good Day Sunshine - Wikipedia

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Ths chords are the most interesting part , IMHO.

Just some "strange" vision about chords.
Let's take the C harmonic minor scale.
It's 1st triad chord (Tonic chord) is C min - C - Eb - G

Now, let's take a E harmonic minor scale,
and make a triad of the same (or enharmonic) notes - C - D#(Eb) - G.

In both cases, the TRIAD is the same, but it carries a completely different meaning/weight due to our understanding of Tonal Harmony.

 

[SteveCS]

Just some "strange" vision about chords.
Let's take the C harmonic minor scale.
It's 1st triad chord (Tonic chord) is C min - C - Eb - G

Now, let's take a E harmonic minor scale,
and make a triad of the same (or enharmonic) notes - C - D#(Eb) - G.

In both cases, the TRIAD is the same, but it carries a completely different meaning/weight due to our understanding of Tonal Harmony.

View attachment 4274021

But isn't that D# is an augmented 2nd, not a minor 3rd? In which case what you are trying to call Cm is not a triad at all, let alone a diatonic one. In E minor, taking C as the root of a diatonic chord yields a Major triad (C, E, G).

 

[Whousedtoplay]

But isn't that D# is an augmented 2nd, not a minor 3rd?

Yes, it's an augmented 2nd, but if you play those notes on the piano and close your eyes, and try to guess...

Let's take a Hungarian Minor scale as C Hungarian Minor.
C D Eb F# G Ab B

It's in the key of C minor but it's NOT DIATONIC.

 

[SteveCS]

Yes, it's an augmented 2nd, but if you play those notes on the piano and close your eyes, and try to guess...

Context is everything. Just played in isolation it becomes just another Cm chord with no harmonic function. Try getting a Cm chord to play nicely in the key of E minor without any assistance* getting there - yuck!

*some kind of preparatory modulation, perhaps in simplest terms via G^7 > G7, although that is pretty crude, IMHO.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Context is everything. Just played in isolation it becomes just another Cm chord with no harmonic function. Try getting a Cm chord to play nicely in the key of E minor without any assistance* getting there - yuck!

*some kind of preparatory modulation, perhaps in simplest terms via G^7 > G7, although that is pretty crude, IMHO.

Some theoreticians are using the line of fifths. Some mark F as 0, some mark D as 0.
In the following example, we use F as 0.

The span of a diatonic scale is 6.
(It's only about mathematics)

 

[SteveCS]

Some theoreticians are using the line of fifths. Some mark F as 0, some mark D as 0.
In the following example, we use F as 0.

View attachment 4274238

The span of a diatonic scale is 6.
(It's only about mathematics)

View attachment 4274240

Apologies, but I have no idea what that all means. But it does imply that melodic minor is not diatonic! And so we come full circle...

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Another feature of scales could be call

Apologies, but I have no idea what that all means. But it does imply that melodic minor is not diatonic! And so we come full circle...

No, it just means that there are two groups of musicians - the purists and the OTHERS.
(LOL)
About that "line of fifths."
If you "flatten" that circle of fifth and make it as a LINE, than, you'll get the following string.
There is some "intentional" discussion where to place that O - zero.

The contemporary theoreticians must "prove" that they are doing their job; therefore, they "invent" (with a little help from mathematics) some new "terminology" about scales and their "scale-ness".

See attached a table of Scale Well-Formedness.