Is the melodic Minor scale diatonic?

[FatStringer52]

If you "flatten" that circle of fifth and make it as a LINE, than, you'll get the following string.
There is some "intentional" discussion where to place that O - zero.

I know I'm about to jump into the deep end now, but why would it matter where the zero is placed? Isn't it fifths to the right and fourths to the left?

 

[SteveCS]

No, it just means that there are two groups of musicians - the purists and the OTHERS.

By which you probably mean there two groups - musicians and musicologists. Only a musicologist would have the arrogance to assess the 'well-formedness' of the scales of the minor key as less than that of the major scale. Do these people even have ears?

 

[SteveCS]

Yes, it's an augmented 2nd, but if you play those notes on the piano and close your eyes, and try to guess...

Let's take a Hungarian Minor scale as C Hungarian Minor.
C D Eb F# G Ab B

It's in the key of C minor but it's NOT DIATONIC.

View attachment 4274228

I would not say that is in the key of C minor. Rather it uses the C minor key signature in accordance with that time-honoured tradition of reducing the number of accidentals needed in the score.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I know I'm about to jump into the deep end now, but why would it matter where the zero is placed? Isn't it fifths to the right and fourths to the left?

The exact choice of mapping from note-name to fifth-classes is arbitrary!

It's about some "strange" mathematics that I don't want to get involved.
It has something to do with the size of the fifth -an equal-tempered fifth of 700 cents.

A theoretician, Hook (2011) prefers to assign fifth-class class 0 to D-natural.
"The advantage of this choice of assignment is that it allows him to most readily develop his ideas about “balanced” forms (88), i.e., those that contain equal numbers of both sharps and flats."
"Another useful convention would be to assign 0 to C;
then a conventional 12-tone equal temperament pitch-class could be extracted from a fifth-class by
multiplication by 7, mod 12. With F = 0, we can calculate a pitch-class from a fifth-class by first subtracting
1, then multiplying by 7 mod 12. (E.g., F = ([0 – 1] * 7) mod 12 = 5.)"

 

[FatStringer52]

Thanks for the explanation. I knew I would drown when I jumped in. I've read and listened some to the arguments re: just and equal temperments. And these folks really carry things out to the "enth" degree. I guess I'll just be happy with the theory I know and let them continue with their physics of our musical system(s).

 

[mambo4]

There’s theory that is practical , then there’s theory that is ...well, theoretical I guess. Harmonizing a diatonic scale is useful. Agonizing over weather or not melodic minor is correctly labeled “ diatonic” is less so. Inventing and Organizing the line of fifths and some arbitrary system of “ well formed ness” even less so.

It reminds me of Russell’s Lydian Chromatic stuff. At the end of the day I have to ask “ does the result sound good to me?” Not too much IMHO.

 

[SteveCS]

...
...Agonizing over weather or not melodic minor is correctly labeled “ diatonic” is less so.
...

Oddly enough I find it useful to think of it all (natural, harmonic, melodic) as diatonic as it streamlines the process by not having to get bogged down in complications. It perhaps helps to come to this way of thinking after navigating the complications.

 

[mambo4]

I like assuming the major scale is the default unless it is clearly indicated otherwise. For me, inclusion of melodic and harmonic minor in "diatonic" opens the way to ambiguity.

Before this thread, if someone discussed a "diatonic VI chord" I would automatically assume they mean a minor triad or minor 7th chord built on the Major sixth of the key. ( without further context, I guess it is still a safe assumption.) But now there's wiggle room: A "diatonic VI chord" could be rooted on the minor 6th, could be a major or diminished triad.

Now I have to add extra context to my explanations

 

[SteveCS]

I like assuming the major scale is the default unless it is clearly indicated otherwise. For me, inclusion of melodic and harmonic minor in "diatonic" opens the way to ambiguity.

Before this thread, if someone discussed a "diatonic VI chord" I would automatically assume they mean a minor triad or minor 7th chord built on the Major sixth of the key. ( without further context, I guess it is still a safe assumption.) But now there's wiggle room: A "diatonic VI chord" could be rooted on the minor 6th, could be a major or diminished triad.

Now I have to add extra context to my explanations

My 'background', if you like, is unambiguous and uses lower case for minor, so the submediant chord in a major key would actually be written 'vi'. In the minor key, upper case 'VI' would be on the natural (minor) 6th and vi°. would be used for the diminished triad on the major 6th.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

There’s theory that is practical , then there’s theory that is ...well, theoretical I guess.

In my personal opinion, that mathematical knowledge of Music Harmony has not(!) helped me to create better bass lines.

It reminds me of Russell’s Lydian Chromatic stuff.

I have more(!) respect for Russell's Lydian Chromatic stuff.
But it's just me.

inclusion of melodic and harmonic minor in "diatonic" opens the way to ambiguity.

Yes, those melodic and harmonic minor scales have less
a) scale-ness,
b) well-formedness,
c) evenness.

Even their Myhill's property levels are lower.

(Myhill's property is the quality of musical scales.)

LOL!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Oddly enough I find it useful to think of it all (natural, harmonic, melodic) as diatonic as it streamlines the process by not having to get bogged down in complications. It perhaps helps to come to this way of thinking after navigating the complications.

Where would you place a Harmonic Major scale?

 

[SteveCS]

...
...
Yes, those melodic and harmonic minor scales have less
a) scale-ness,
b) well-formedness,
c) evenness
...

Would that be aurally, visually or numerically?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Would that be aurally, visually or numerically?

It's all in the brains of the mathematicians.

LOL!

 

[SteveCS]

Where would you place a Harmonic Major scale?

Somewhat 'on the outside'. In my band we play Hazell O'Connor's 'Will You'. We don't have a sax player so it's all just piano, bass and vocals. The song is essentially a couple of verses and choruses which then repeat without vocals as an instrumental. I double the second half of the solo on fretless bass in unison with the piano, and there is a short passage of figures towards the end which use parts of the harmonic major scale (A, C#, D, E, F). It is much fun to play but is the only practical example I can offer. Beyond that I don't really think about it that much.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Hazell O'Connor's 'Will You'.

Somehow, that song has reminded me of Procol Harum.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I find it useful to think of it all (natural, harmonic, melodic) as diatonic

We accept all three forms of the Minor scale as "diatonic", but...
Nobody says about the Harmonic major scale as, "Hey, it's just another form of the Major scale".

P.S. I have not encountered any questions about the Melodic Major Scale at TalkBass.

"The melodic Major scale was used in Eastern European folk melodies, but was ignored by most classical composers.

Today this scale, like the harmonic Major scale, is used in Jazz Music. The difference between a melodic Major scale and a harmonic Major scale is that in the melodic Major scale we have 7th degrees lowered by a half tone. For example in the C melodic Major scale, we have B-flat instead of B. So in all melodic Major scales we have 6th and 7th degrees lowered by a half step."

https://visihow.com/Build_Major_Scales_(Natural,_Harmonic,_Melodic)

 

[SteveCS]

...
but was ignored by most classical composers.
...

In all probability that would be due to the lack of a leading tone.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

In all probability that would be due to the lack of a leading tone.

Here’s a list of the 7 modes of the melodic minor scale:

Melodic minor scale (aka jazz minor scale)
Dorian b2 (aka Phrygian #6)
Lydian augmented
Lydian dominant (aka overtone scale)
Mixolydian b6 = Melodic Major Scale
Aeolian b5 (aka Locrian #2)
Altered scale (aka super Locrian)

A Melodic Major Scale