Is there a logic behind where exactly pickups go?

[KevInDaBassment]

Leo Fender made up breadboards to test pickup placement etc. I believe that there's still one or two of them at G&L in the Leo's workshop shrine. As in all such matters with him, I think that experimentation was the route—certainly not theory.

View attachment 4468507

Man, what a waste of time!!!...there's no tort ANYWHERE on that thing!!

 

[andare]

Behind the bridge. Absolutely terrible.

I've heard Jazzmasters with a pickup there picking up a ton of sweet overtones. Really cool add-on

 

[andare]

Can anyone explain the logic behind placing two pickups right next to each other like on Dingwalls and Sereks?

They practically sound the same. Seems like a wasted opportunity

 

[g-dude]

I'm about to find out about pickup placement from putting a 34" scale neck on a 32" scale body (moving the bridge back to make the 12th fret the halfway point).

This essentially moves the pickup cavities a smidge towards the neck.

Science aside, the closer the bass pickup is to the neck the more hollow it sounds.

So part of that is where the pickup is…but part of that is where you are plucking is also likely moving - whether you intentionally do it or not.

Hold pickup location constant and start plucking closer to the 12th fret and listen to how the sound changes. Now, pluck at the exact same location but change the pickup location (on a 2 or more pickup bass), and listen to how that sound changes.

In terms of the sound you want, you’re not really solving for X, and you’re not solving for Y - you’re solving for X and Y. And throw in some other letters as well.

 

[GIBrat51]

Gilmourisgod, post: 25840709, member: 264687"]When studying a Ric 4003 for a clone build, I realized that the pickups for a 1" spacing at the neck fall almost perfectly on theoretical 24th and 36th fret locations, which cant have been accidental. How much that positioning contributes to the classic Ric tone is a mystery. The older Ric basses had 1/2" pup spacing at the neck, which aligns with nothing, go figure. A few TB'ers have built "mules" with sliding pickup locators as test beds, but as said, as soon as you fret the note, its all out the window. You could probably use a mule to ballpark it to where it generally sounds best, Im guessing thats what Leo Fender did. I have no idea what metric other modern builders are using, probably ballparking it too. Any mule builders out there, how well does it work?[/QUOTE]

I have a sneaky suspicion that the real reason RIC moved the neck pickup from where it is on my '73 4001 (1/2" from the neck) to where it is now, had very little to do with how it sounds - and a whole lot more to do with those 4001's unfortunate tendency to fold in half at that spot. Because the huge pickup rout there removed all but a thin strip of wood to hold the neck to the rest of the bass. Like my 4001 is starting to do, for instance... Which doesn't happen anymore, after they moved the pickup - and made the rout for it much smaller. As for the "logic" of pickup placement in general? I think some manufacturers did, indeed, try to place the pickup(s) at nodal points - or whatever; and quickly realized that all that "science" went out the window as soon as the player touched a fret. But, there they were - and there they've stayed. Some companies put the pickup(s) where the strings vibrate the most - or as close as possible if there's more than one - with varying degrees of success. Ricks, for example, are kind of lousy at that. Even with the bridge p/u being larger - and hotter - than the neck p/u, "why is it weak?" is a common post on any forum about Ricks. The position is why; that close to the bridge, the string's vibration amplitude is... weak. Which results in weak p/u output. Danelectros with 2 pickups suffer from the same thing. I know; I own 3 of them. I don't own one, but I'd bet Jazz Basses do, too. P-Basses, OTOH, do not. Lots of string vibration going on above that pickup... So, IMO, the only real "logic" in pickup placement is; put the pickup(s) where the string vibration is strong. All that other "science" is nothing more that fodder for a barroom argument - or a website debate...

 

[Mushroo]

Can anyone explain the logic behind placing two pickups right next to each other like on Dingwalls and Sereks?

They practically sound the same. Seems like a wasted opportunity

If you are only using one pickup at a time, in an either/or configuration, then I agree with you.

But if you are using a blend of the two pickups, then it makes a huge difference.

An analogy would be, if you drop 2 rocks into a still pond, then the combined pattern of ripples they create on the surface will be more complex and turbulent, than if you only dropped 1 rock. The distance you drop the two rocks from each other, is an important variable in the resulting pattern.

Or think of two people jumping on a trampoline together. The distance between the two of you affects the rhythm of your jumping. If you are bouncing close together, it feels different than if you are bouncing farther apart.

 

[ctmullins]

Can anyone explain the logic behind placing two pickups right next to each other like on Dingwalls and Sereks?

They practically sound the same. Seems like a wasted opportunity

Close to the neck they will have similar tones.

Close to the bridge they will sound vastly different.

Also, just to be a bit pedantic, “two pickups right next to each other” exactly describes the single Stingray pickup.

 

[Hurricane Jimmie]

starts as Science, ends up Alchemy.

So Anyway, I can't wait to use this to explain something.

 

[bholder]

that is totally subjective

Everything is. That's what makes it so much fun! hehe

 

[ardgedee]

How about a different question:

Is there any pickup placement to avoid for any reason?

Here are all the places Fender, and Leo Fender, has put pickups. Sorry for representing the Precision location as a giant rectangle but it made sense for what I needed the chart for at the time.

 

[bholder]

Let's make this simple. There is no magic. Theories based on nodes and harmonics make for nice reading on the internet but there is no basis in reality.

Pickup location impacts tone, but the relationship between tone and position is just a smooth curve. Towards the neck and there's more emphasis on bass frequencies. Towards the bridge and there's less emphasis on bass frequencies. Slide a pickup from the neck to the bridge in small increments and you get correspondingly small and very predictable changes in tone.

As you move the pickup, you absolutely do NOT get sudden magic points where the tone is suddenly awesome in one specific point. The points that people talk about in terms of nodes or harmonics do not suddenly sound better than the points right nearby.

The Theorist in me wants to agree with you, but the Experimentalist begs to differ. At least, there are an awful lot of people who believe very strongly that small changes can make large differences, witness discussions of particularly the MM and P "sweet spots" and the near-religious wars over J bridge pickup position preference. Maybe you're right and it's really simple, a smooth gradation. Maybe they're right. I'm not sure whether it's an issue of Physics or Psychology.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Gilmourisgod, post: 25840709, member: 264687"]When studying a Ric 4003 for a clone build, I realized that the pickups for a 1" spacing at the neck fall almost perfectly on theoretical 24th and 36th fret locations, which cant have been accidental. How much that positioning contributes to the classic Ric tone is a mystery. The older Ric basses had 1/2" pup spacing at the neck, which aligns with nothing, go figure. A few TB'ers have built "mules" with sliding pickup locators as test beds, but as said, as soon as you fret the note, its all out the window. You could probably use a mule to ballpark it to where it generally sounds best, Im guessing thats what Leo Fender did. I have no idea what metric other modern builders are using, probably ballparking it too. Any mule builders out there, how well does it work?

I have a sneaky suspicion that the real reason RIC moved the neck pickup from where it is on my '73 4001 (1/2" from the neck) to where it is now, had very little to do with how it sounds - and a whole lot more to do with those 4001's unfortunate tendency to fold in half at that spot. Because the huge pickup rout there removed all but a thin strip of wood to hold the neck to the rest of the bass. Like my 4001 is starting to do, for instance... Which doesn't happen anymore, after they moved the pickup - and made the rout for it much smaller. As for the "logic" of pickup placement in general? I think some manufacturers did, indeed, try to place the pickup(s) at nodal points - or whatever; and quickly realized that all that "science" went out the window as soon as the player touched a fret. But, there they were - and there they've stayed. Some companies put the pickup(s) where the strings vibrate the most - or as close as possible if there's more than one - with varying degrees of success. Ricks, for example, are kind of lousy at that. Even with the bridge p/u being larger - and hotter - than the neck p/u, "why is it weak?" is a common post on any forum about Ricks. The position is why; that close to the bridge, the string's vibration amplitude is... weak. Which results in weak p/u output. Danelectros with 2 pickups suffer from the same thing. I know; I own 3 of them. I don't own one, but I'd bet Jazz Basses do, too. P-Basses, OTOH, do not. Lots of string vibration going on above that pickup... So, IMO, the only real "logic" in pickup placement is; put the pickup(s) where the string vibration is strong. All that other "science" is nothing more that fodder for a barroom argument - or a website debate...[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I agree that was the most likely reason for moving the neck pup, although the grossly oversized "swimming pool" route cutting into the neck tenon right at the point of maximum stress wasn't helping anything either. I think if you slap a set of genuine Ric Hi-Gains at those positions in any all-maple body/neck bass, it's going to sound a lot like like a Ric. The bridge pup is definitely located at a "sweet spot" in tone and string tension, which is why most people take the bridge pup cover off. For my current Fauxlembic build, I just straight up copied the pup locations off the typical "Balance K" body style, as scaled off photos. Not too scientific, but hopefully it works out! No moving them now, that's for sure.

 

[Slade N]

Well, the reason why Fender even introduced the five position pickup is because people discovered you could get this cool tone by putting the three position switch in between the three main positions.

Also, I mean Knopfler, Clapton, Gilmour, SRV and others make use of it….

Strat Quack: What is it, Anyway? — Seymour Duncan

So subjective? Sure. But I honestly believe it. Apparently so do a lot of other people.

They are very cool tones, just not always better

Everything is. That's what makes it so much fun! hehe

Right!

 

[andare]

Close to the neck they will have similar tones.

Close to the bridge they will sound vastly different.

Also, just to be a bit pedantic, “two pickups right next to each other” exactly describes the single Stingray pickup.

So a humbucker wired in parallel?

 

[cnltb]

I just remembered something...

<Guitar Pickup Response Demonstration>

 

[g-dude]

Here are all the places Fender, and Leo Fender, has put pickups. Sorry for representing the Precision location as a giant rectangle but it made sense for what I needed the chart for at the time.
View attachment 4469174

So how did you end up fitting ALL of those pickups on a single build?

 

[g-dude]

They are very cool tones, just not always better

There are definitely some circumstances where I wouldn’t use those positions. Frankly, I think a blues solo sounds best on the neck pickup, and I would lean on the 2 & 4 for times when you need to really cut through a bit.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

So part of that is where the pickup is…but part of that is where you are plucking is also likely moving - whether you intentionally do it or not.

Hold pickup location constant and start plucking closer to the 12th fret and listen to how the sound changes. Now, pluck at the exact same location but change the pickup location (on a 2 or more pickup bass), and listen to how that sound changes.

In terms of the sound you want, you’re not really solving for X, and you’re not solving for Y - you’re solving for X and Y. And throw in some other letters as well.

 

[ctmullins]

So a humbucker wired in parallel?

Parallel is typical. Series is also a viable option.

 

[ardgedee]

The Theorist in me wants to agree with you, but the Experimentalist begs to differ. At least, there are an awful lot of people who believe very strongly that small changes can make large differences, witness discussions of particularly the MM and P "sweet spots" and the near-religious wars over J bridge pickup position preference. Maybe you're right and it's really simple, a smooth gradation. Maybe they're right. I'm not sure whether it's an issue of Physics or Psychology.

How the pickup and the string interact on any given instrument is consistent, testable and provable. How it works, esthetically, for any given person is subjective. So it's both.

The problem arises when people draw conclusions about how it works based purely on how it sounds to them.

So how did you end up fitting ALL of those pickups on a single build?

I'll let you know when I've finished plotting the remaining 23 sides of the tesseract.