Is there a logic behind where exactly pickups go?

[BlueTalon]

Having studied the Physics of musical instruments at a university - getting my degree in Acoustical Physics, I have to disagree. Harmonics do indeed exist (on strings, in rooms, in pipes, and other places) as "standing waves".

A simple demo can easily show this - pluck the 5th harmonic on a 50's style P bass (which has it's pickup ne fifth of the way from the bridge to the nut. Theory predicts that a pickup located there will be deaf to that harmonic. If you try it, you can hear it acoustically (that frequency is absolutely there on the string, and radiating into the air), but if you listen to the output of the bass, it isn't there - it's listening at a node, and the string, at that frequency doesn't translate there, so the pickup doesn't hear it. It's real, it's Science, and its easily demonstrable.

There's a saying that I'm about to butcher by paraphrasing, because I can't remember it precisely. But it's something like Theory works in practice, in theory. In practice, it's a little more complicated. I take issue with your argument for two reason. One, a pickup's magnetic field isn't that narrowly focused. It picks up string movement along a certain length of the string, not at one specific point. So even if someone did play a harmonic exactly over the center of a pickup's pole, the pickup would still pick up vibrations further out from where the harmonic is happening, so it's never entirely "deaf."

Two, whatever a bass's tone is at any given moment, it continues to sound like itself all the way up and down the neck as you play it (with the exception of the occasional dead spot at a certain fret, which is related more to the wood of the neck than harmonics). People who have found that quintessential P sound they've been looking for, still have that sound regardless of where on the neck they play.

Please note, I'm not disrespecting your education or trying to argue that harmonics don't exist as standing waves or anything like that. I just don't think the specific placement of a pickup has that much real-world effect -- moving it a quarter inch in either direction isn't going to do much.

 

[BlueTalon]

Make me think of this


good science is about the experiment, theory is just an explanatory framework consistent with experimental results.

My favorite tone here was the "all pickups at once" tone ( that could just be a cuz its louder)
which makes me wonder what pickups designed to spread out more along the string length, or as one large broad flat magnet, could sound like.

I look at that bass, and I wonder why he didn't put a pickup or two closer to the neck, or at least spread out the five pickups he used a bit more.

 

[g-dude]

I'll let you know when I've finished plotting the remaining 23 sides of the tesseract.

Make sure that you tune it to A=432hz when your’e done.

 

[dwizum]

The Theorist in me wants to agree with you, but the Experimentalist begs to differ. At least, there are an awful lot of people who believe very strongly that small changes can make large differences, witness discussions of particularly the MM and P "sweet spots" and the near-religious wars over J bridge pickup position preference. Maybe you're right and it's really simple, a smooth gradation. Maybe they're right. I'm not sure whether it's an issue of Physics or Psychology.

I don't really think the fact that people argue over something on the internet means there's any substance to the arguments.

Again, I'm not trying to argue that all locations sound the same, or that location doesn't matter. Location absolutely matters. It's totally okay to have a very, very strong preference for the tone you get at a specific location. I have no problem with that, and I have my own favorite "sweet spots." Small differences matter.

The part that I take objection to is when people make up bonkers theories about WHY their spot sounds good. Or they try to use (totally out of context) math or physics concepts to explain why that one particular spot is good. Or they concoct an entire fictitious explanation for how a plucked string vibrates.

If you're an experimentalist, I'm right there with you and I will repeat what I said above - stop by some time and you can try this for yourself on one of my pickup test mules.

 

[micguy]

There's a saying that I'm about to butcher by paraphrasing, because I can't remember it precisely. But it's something like Theory works in practice, in theory. In practice, it's a little more complicated. I take issue with your argument for two reason. One, a pickup's magnetic field isn't that narrowly focused. It picks up string movement along a certain length of the string, not at one specific point. So even if someone did play a harmonic exactly over the center of a pickup's pole, the pickup would still pick up vibrations further out from where the harmonic is happening, so it's never entirely "deaf."

The word you're searching for is the pickup's "aperture" - yes, a pickup does sense a section of the string, not just one point. However, what you fail to realize is that, for a frequency where there is a node right at the pickup, the string is moving, but it's rotating there (the point above the pickup is stationary), not translating. What that means is, for the half of the aperture on one side of the pickup, that section of string is moving away from the pickup, and on the other half, that section of string is moving towards the pickup. Those small contributions cancel each other - the pickup is, for a node on top of it, truly deaf, not just in theory, but in practice. If we were in the same room with a bass and an amp, I could show you this very easily. This isn't just theoretical, it's an easily demonstrable fact.

Two, whatever a bass's tone is at any given moment, it continues to sound like itself all the way up and down the neck as you play it (with the exception of the occasional dead spot at a certain fret, which is related more to the wood of the neck than harmonics). People who have found that quintessential P sound they've been looking for, still have that sound regardless of where on the neck they play.

The sound of a P bass does hold up as you move up and down the neck on one string - the comb filter that the pickup imposes on a string is the SAME comb filter up and down the whole string. Theory predicts this - It's just on certain notes that certain harmonics will cancel - those notes are the ones where those particular harmonics fall in the dips of the comb filter. When you switch strings, the filter changes (the same notes on different strings sound different) - we have all observed that.

Please note, I'm not disrespecting your education or trying to argue that harmonics don't exist as standing waves or anything like that. I just don't think the specific placement of a pickup has that much real-world effect -- moving it a quarter inch in either direction isn't going to do much.

Yes, if you move the pickup a quarter inch it won't change things that much - the theory agrees with you on that. If the pickup is close to the bridge, a quarter inch will do more than if you're further out, but in practice nobody puts pickups all that close to a bridge on a bass.

 

[retslock]

Hardly. Pickups are located all over the available string lengths of basses made in the last few decades. You’ve got Ken Smith basses with the bridge pickup slammed by the bridge, and the Yamaha Billy Sheehan Attitude with a pickup right up against the neck, and thouands of offerings with everything in between those extremes.

As mentioned before, the bridge pickup on Fender Jazz basses in the 70’s was moved back towards the bridge so it would fit under bridge covers that Fender already had in stock en masse. Purely an economic decision. Leo wasn’t involved in Fender then, but he did start a tradition of doing things cheap.

In an example on one of the most expensive basses available, the pickup location on the Fodera Anthony Jackson Presentation bass was decided by Anthony himself. He placed where he thought it sounded best. Many Talkbass pundits had theories and rationales behind its placement. Finally, Anthony came here himself and said was solely his choice and there was no rhyme or reason to it aside from his sonic preference.

That’s what it comes down to. There are so many variations available. My preference is the Precision location. I’ve placed various pickups there and I like the results. As soon as you play in different parts of the neck everything changes anyway. Science? Physics? It doesn’t matter. Just go with what you like.

 

[Baa]

I found pictures with comparisons between pickup placements.
Then i decided to add my Vantages to the mix. (and my fake Mockingbird)
It tells me absolutely nothing except Vantage Duoble P pickups are placed
in the same spots as the Stingray HH.
I love how they sound, but can't tell you why...

 

[ravlin]

The only thing I’d add to all of the “Leo did a bunch of testing and got it right, the end.” types is that Leo probably had dismal means of testing compared today. The monitors and amps couldn’t have replicated the true sound of the instrument as we can today. Of course the counter point is that one should test in the real world so we should all be listening for such differences on our car stereos…. In any case, fingers matter more than pickup placement. After a 15 year run at solving my tone search through gear I finally learned to temper my right hand and can now produce the depth I’ve been searching for on a multitude of instruments. The pickup placement will determine which harmonics are detectable but the right hand determines how much harmonic content ends up on the string in the first place.

 

[sikamikanico]

Here are all the places Fender, and Leo Fender, has put pickups. Sorry for representing the Precision location as a giant rectangle but it made sense for what I needed the chart for at the time.
View attachment 4469174

cool picture! What are the measurements behind it based on? They generally correspond to my notes/impressions, but there are some key differences, so I wonder if I have the wrong info… Chiefly, I thought the G&L L2000 bridge pickup is further back, not at the same spot as the Stingray…The Kiloton would be in the ‘Ray spot, no?

 

[sikamikanico]

My take on pickup placement is that it’s less than a theory, but more than opinion. Some people would call these heuristics, or rules of thumb.

This is how is see things

• Closer to neck = more bass, closer to bridge = less bass.
  
• Closer to bridge = difference in placement matters more.
• Running two or more pickups together = differences in their placement are more pronounced; and the placement of the bridge pickup seems to matter more also in this scenario

Based on this, I concluded that there are indeed sweet spots, but that gets us into preference territory. Although, it seems like some preferences are more common than others, which could constitute additional rules of thumb. I also find it that pickup design has a lot to do with what sounds good where…

 

[ctmullins]

(a lot of good stuff I agree with, followed by) I also find it that pickup design has a lot to do with what sounds good where…

This is a huge consideration! It’s not just where the pickup is placed, and it’s not just that pickup’s innate tone, but both hand in hand!

Put a thin/bright sounding pickup next to the bridge - thin crappy tone.

Put that same thin/bright sounding pickup next to the end of the fretboard - fullness and warmth, with plenty of clarity.

Put a thick and beefy pickup next to the fretboard - mud city.

Put that same thick and beefy pickup near the bridge - full and muscular tone, with tightness and articulation.

 

[micahwc]

No. Leo didn’t choose his p bass location for the tone; he probably chose it because it’s where it was easiest to route. Will the tone be different if it were moved? Probably. Would you be able to hear that difference in a live mix? No.

Does a MM stingray sound how it does because of the pickup location? Or is it the pickup, the preamp, the materials of the body, etc? The location probably does contribute a bit, but again, can you hear the difference in a mix?

 

[ardgedee]

cool picture! What are the measurements behind it based on? They generally correspond to my notes/impressions, but there are some key differences, so I wonder if I have the wrong info… Chiefly, I thought the G&L L2000 bridge pickup is further back, not at the same spot as the Stingray…The Kiloton would be in the ‘Ray spot, no?

I generated the neck w/ frets using FretFind2d, then cribbed a bunch of good-quality photos from Sweetwater, Fender, and G&L's sites, adjusted the scale and traced the pickup positions. It's impossible to have the nut, 12th fret and bridge (at the G string) in these photos all line up perfectly this way (even if the camera is perfectly positioned perpendicular to the string plane over the 12 fret and far enough away and uses a long lens -- and noone photographs their guitars that way, it's too much fussiness for no benefit to themselves -- there's still the non-flatness of the neck affecting perspective, especially the positions of the lower frets and the pickups), so a fair amount of dead reckoning was involved as well.

Also, I didn't graph the positions of the L1000 and K1000 pickups because, well, I dunno. At one point I considered throwing in a ton of bass models from other companies to graph even more positions but decided that it would be a lot of work that wouldn't affect the conclusion, so I stopped at what you see.

Other times I've posted that image I've added the caveat that it wasn't meant to be accurate, just close enough for my own purposes at the time, so I should've noted that again here.

 

[sunbeast]

cool picture! What are the measurements behind it based on? They generally correspond to my notes/impressions, but there are some key differences, so I wonder if I have the wrong info… Chiefly, I thought the G&L L2000 bridge pickup is further back, not at the same spot as the Stingray…The Kiloton would be in the ‘Ray spot, no?

You are correct- based on my measurements back when I had an L2000 I would say both of the pickups are positioned closer to the neck than they should be in that picture. The actual bridge pickup is centered somewhere between the 60s and 70s Jazz and the actual neck pickup pushed more in between neck J and P positions. The Kiloton and L1500 have pickups about where that L2000 bridge pickup is drawn.