• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Is there a reason tenor clef is used for thumb position?

Andy Mopley

Andy Mopley

Sep 24, 2011
1,335
318
#1
that for thumb position other clef is used (eg tenor) as opposed to simply marking them to be played an octave higher, in the bass clef, up to loco? I know that musically it looks better but does make reading a little more challenging (when using different clef).

And yes, I have dusted off Simandl (lesser spoken of) White Book (the things one does when isolating ;-) )

Regards to all
 
#2
It makes more sense if you look at it in the context of the cello repertoire. Like, violas use alto clef (another c clef) and the role of a cello would would be mostly like a bass voice in an ensemble, but when soloing would be a little more like a tenor singer. Thus, the tenor clef for high solo stuff. Basses just kind of inherit that tradition, use the tenor clef in our solo rep.
 
#3
My understanding is that using both tenor and treble clefs as well as octave signs keeps the notes closer to the clef lines (1) to make them easier to read, and (2) to allow room for the expression signs and words under the line above. For the same reasons our bass music sounds one octave lower than it is written. Compare this with the poor tuba players who read their low notes at pitch all the way to the bottom with short lines and spaces, and consider ourselves to be very lucky!
 
  • Like
Reactions: VictorW126, Michal Herman, Winoman and 6 others
#4
Both Barfany and David have excellent points.

I think the tenor clef is a more old fashioned notation for bass. In modern notations it is used less I think. For me there is no real need to use it. I would say skip the tenor clef and use the treble clef instead. Makes much more sense to me. Even using 8va and using bass clef as you suggest is better in my opinion.

What I really hate is when a piece uses three clefs, bass, tenor and treble. Makes the music look overly shattered.

So to modern day composers and editors I would say skip the tenor clef altogether.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neil Pye, Winoman, geoffbassist and 3 others
#5
From a logical point of view, the tenor clef seems like a strange beast to me. The bass and treble clefs make perfect sense with piano in mind, where the clefs illustrate on what part of the ten-line-system a note is written. That way, both clefs are equally easy to grasp when knowing one of them.
The tenor clef I have seen most “transposes” the f of the bass clef (2nd line from the top) to C.
That would sort of make sense if the sounding octave of tenor clef were OVER treble clef, since that could be seen as a continuation of the lines above top ledger line 2 on treble clef. Alas, the tenor clef is between bass and treble, and that always puzzles me a bit.
I don’t know if this line of thinking makes sense to anyone but me, but at least it helpes me learning to readilbthem, especially bass and treble.

best
Sidecar
 
#6
Whether on bass or cello, when addressing jazz and pop music I like the bass/treble clefs approach, easy to share with non-classical players. But if you dig classical, as noted above, the cello repertoire features a lot of tenor clef. A Vivaldi cello sonata is an example. The first of the Vaughn Williams Six Studies in English Folk-Song (Boosey version) has bass, tenor and treble clefs tightly notated and it is a pretty short piece. But using three clefs makes it easier on the eyes, avoids lots of ledger lines, and makes the various markings more clear. And we see the same reasoning in making up orchestra parts for cello and bass. I’ve become fond of tenor clef and often enough transcribe pop and standards from bass or treble to tenor clef for the meat of the melody in that tenor range. Just did Under Paris Skies, for example, which is a trip up and down the cello A string.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Winoman
#7
It's a good idea to learn tenor clef to increase your ability to read cello repertoire. In fact, some working understanding of other C clefs is valuable just in general. But tenor clef is well out of date, and if you are the type to go writing music for bass, do not use it! Tenor clef is a false economy, because it still leaves most of our typical register above the staff using ledger lines. It's extremely rare to have to read tenor clef in the staff for most of the repertoire that uses it, and I for one have no idea what the notes are below the G in the second space.
Treble clef and bass clef separated more or less around C or D is the standard of the future.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Winoman, neilG, Scott Lynch and 2 others
#8
For me it's a matter of how many mental steps I have to go through getting from eyes to fingers.

Bass and treble clefs are kind of hard wired in my brain and there's no thinking involved unless the notes are more than about three ledger lines off the staff.

8ve-----'s force me to bypass that direct connection and insert some decision making on the fly, slowing me down.

If I had been "raised" on tenor clef as well, I suspect it would be hard wired too but rather it's been like learning a second language as an adult. It will never be as fluent as bass/treble. Too much having to think about it.

If you add transposing to the mix, things get weird. If I have a simple tune in my head, I can put it pretty much anywhere I want on the fingerboard without much thought. But read it and transpose it? Forget it, I'm lost. I could rewrite it in the time it takes me to play it. Always awed by people who have that ability or who can switch effortlessly between string tunings.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 16fuss, Winoman and Les Fret
#10
I read in Simandl II (between the lines) that bass clef is used for bass, tenor clef is used for thumb position, violin clef is used to play harmonics. But even in Simandl this rule is not always true and 8va lines are there often. I have a feeling that the editors of music books aspired to write the notes as easy to read as possible, and the clef suggested the approximate area of the fingerboard.
Could it be they thought that it is more economical to take the trouble to educate the musician to read multiple clefs, as then the musician could read some clues about the fingering from the clef used, which helped him to play the piece with less practising?

I learned the tenor clef from Simandl, and it was not that hard. Learning the clef allows me to read any old notes there are. It's worth it. But when I write down any high notes today, I always use 8va sign, somehow it is more understandable for my mental map of bass.

For the fun of it, I tried to read this and then my optimistic brain just frozen solid.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dogfightgiggle and Winoman
#11
Yes there are reasons.

There are 7 clefs. High to low these are:

treble (G clef)
soprano (C clef)
mezzo-soprano (C clef)
alto (C clef)
tenor (C clef)
baritone (F clef)
bass (F clef)

Take a musical staff of 5 lines and 4 spaces. For 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th printing presses, it was far easier to change the clef to get the needed note ranges than it was to create ledger lines. Think of mechanical printing presses of the day... ledger lines are a big P.I.T.A.!

So the using the different clefs meant avoiding the ledger lines.

Using the tenor clef to augment the bass clef , gives an extended range of a 5th up. For contrabass music of the time, a 5th up was plenty. No need for an octave up. So tenor clef was used.

In previous times, most musicians were fluent in all 7 clefs, and in recent times at least the 4 main clefs (bass, treble, alto, tenor). Reading tenor was no big deal.

Tenor clef was used as it was practical and provided the best solution to the needs of the era.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SteveCS and Winoman
#13
Just a personal observation of something. I play woodwinds in addition to bass. I am just as comfortable playing C parts on tenor(a Bb instrument) sax, as I am using the Bb parts. In fact, when I play bass on the same tunes, which I ocassionally do, I much prefer to read the tenor part in C. I am able to internalize the actual pitch required much more quickly than adjust my brain to reading a transposed part. But, if I am reading transposed to Bb part, and I play flute, my brain panics and I have difficulty.
Probably just a matter of "practice", but to me, it is interesting (mmv). So... I know if I take a large chunk of practice time, for probably weeks, I could play tenor clef parts on bass without the brain engaged. I seem to just prefer whining about it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Winoman
#14
I can say as a former composition student that composers like c clefs, because looking at multiple parts with loads of ledger lines will give you migraines.

Also I think the modern composers/arrangers use tenor clef less. I remember playing stuff like Hindemith Sonata and new arrangements of Bach for bass in school, and they just had an 8va mark when it got high.

That's just the central struggle of classical performance in a nutshell - the benefits of maintaining tradition vs the advantages offered by modernity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Les Fret and Chris Fitzgerald
#16
I may then follow on with this thread rather than creating new...What do you find you are "hard wired" to in terms of unlearning / learning a new skill be it a different bow stroke, or reading a new clef, or even just setting up your instrument?? What strategies do you employ when faced with old habits (where they need changing!)
Neil G - does the G stand for genius, to be able to read bass, tenor, alto and soprano clefs - CHAPEU! :-)
 
#18
Andy Mopley said:
Neil G - does the G stand for genius, to be able to read bass, tenor, alto and soprano clefs - CHAPEU! :)
Click to expand...

No geniuses here. A few years ago when I took up the bass viol, I needed to learn alto clef. It took many weeks to really get it down. I just stared at the music and played slowly, day after day, in the beginning saying the notes in my head or out loud. I don't even remember the transition from not being able to being able.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Winoman
#19
It is easier to learn to read tenor clef and thereby become a better musician, than to question it/fight against it! It opens up more rep. and only takes a couple of days if you are a good reader.
The International Edition for bass of Faure's After a Dream is an easy way to pick it up. It nice, gives you the first part in bass clef, then repeats it tenor before adding new material in tenor.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Winoman

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back