Double Bass Is there a reason tenor clef is used for thumb position?

[BarfanyShart]

Completely nerdy point, but since we already transpose an octave down when reading music, is "8va" technically the right marking to play an octave up? Wouldn't we then just be playing the notes as written. The marking should be "end 8vb" or "at pitch" or "as written."

 

[chilensko]

Just for make you smarter!!! you are a bass player!

 

[damonsmith]

Reading the tenor clef (and maybe even reading in general) is not gonna make you a better musician!

Not the most intelligent thing you've said on here, with due respect! Actually learning to read tenor involves reading enough music you haven't read before that you will most certainly be a better musician than before you read it. Most of the music written in tenor for the bass is at least fairly challenging, so diving into some of that with make you better for certain.

On the other hand, I personally don't think reading is the best way to make music, it is just a very efficient way to study both music and the instrument.
Best not to get hung up on little things like clefs and reading.

 

[thabassmon]

Does anyone else think that Bass music should be just written at pitch? There are more notes above the stave than below it in regards to double or electric bass and bass clef.

 

[Les Fret]

Not the most intelligent thing you've said on here, with due respect!

Thanks! I was serious though. Reading is just a means to an end just as you say. But reading in itself doesn't make you a better musician. Practicing what you read makes you better. But you could also just copy someone or do it by ear. Like they do in Gypsy or Indian music. The end result is the same. I make the best music when I don't read, which is 90% of the time (although I am a good reader). That was my intelligent remark for today. It doesn't get any better than this!

 

[damonsmith]

A good musician doesn't look for excuses and work arounds, so just getting it is out of the way and getting on with it makes you a better musician.
Each skill you add makes you a better musician than you were before.
If you can't read, then learning to read will make you a better musician than you were before, if you can't read tenor, then learning to read tenor clef will certainly make you better musician than you were before.
I don't think being able to read any clef makes anyone an inherently better musician than someone who doesn't.

Thanks! I was serious though. Reading is just a means to an end just as you say. But reading in itself doesn't make you a better musician. Practicing what you read makes you better. But you could also just copy someone or do it by ear. Like they do in Gypsy or Indian music. The end result is the same. That was my intelligent remark for today!

 

[damonsmith]

Does anyone else think that Bass music should be just written at pitch? There are more notes above the stave than below it in regards to double or electric bass and bass clef.

I think it should be written in the way that can get us access to the most music, the old way is fine. Tenor has mostly been phased out in favor of bar lines and treble, but, if there is music you want to play that is in tenor - and there must be for anyone who has the question - it is a simple skill to get out of your way.

 

[jj.833]

Completely nerdy point, but since we already transpose an octave down when reading music, is "8va" technically the right marking to play an octave up? Wouldn't we then just be playing the notes as written. The marking should be "end 8vb" or "at pitch" or "as written."

I think that is something different. Bass is a transposing instrument: Everything that is written in any clef used sounds octave lower than on piano. 8va up means 'play it octave higher than where you would play it normally' but doens't say anything about the instrument's basic transposition. You are right that when you play 8va, it sounds like without 8va on piano. It's a good source of confusion, but frankly, only in theoretical situations, in my experience.

A true nerd could maybe use a bass clef with bottom added 8, similar to the first clef on this pic. I think I've seen it once, and ranked it somewhere into the history of PC notation issues. Or is there more to it?

 

[CaseyVancouver]

I also play bass viol. I'm working on a piece that uses bass, tenor, alto and soprano clefs.

Kudos to you on this one!
Four clefs. If it’s a six string viol you’ve also got notes all over the place, compared to a 4th tuned 4 string bass. Then some strings are tuned in 3rds? Gut strings? And a bow that does not adjust?

Got any pics?

I was scheduled to play some early music with my chamber group before we all got sequestered. The Muses, Polyhymnia and Fancies of three parts 1638. The time signature 4/2 is interesting. Was looking forward to it

 

[neilG]

Kudos to you on this one!
Four clefs. If it’s a six string viol you’ve also got notes all over the place, compared to a 4th tuned 4 string bass. Then some strings are tuned in 3rds? Gut strings? And a bow that does not adjust?
Got any pics?
I was scheduled to play some early music with my chamber group before we all got sequestered. The Muses, Polyhymnia and Fancies of three parts 1638. The time signature 4/2 is interesting. Was looking forward to it

It's tuned d'-a-e-c-G-D. There are indeed notes all over the place. I use a screw adjustable bow. Clip-ins are for the fanatics.

 

[neilG]

A true nerd could maybe use a bass clef with bottom added 8, similar to the first clef on this pic. I think I've seen it once, and ranked it somewhere into the history of PC notation issues. Or is there more to it?

Technically speaking, we should be using the octave bass clef which is what you said, a clef with an "8" below it. You can also put the "8" above the clef, indicating an octave higher than written.

 

[Lee Moses]

Reading the tenor clef (and maybe even reading in general) is not gonna make you a better musician!

Completely disagree. Reading may only be one facet of musicianship; but all else being equal, the musician who can read easily gets the nod over the musician who cannot.

 

[Les Fret]

Completely disagree. Reading may only be one facet of musicianship; but all else being equal, the musician who can read easily gets the nod over the musician who cannot.

If I see a good player I don't care if he can read or not. Can Jeff Beck read? I don't know and I don't care. What I do care about is how he plays and sounds. Many of my favorite players don't read. In the classical or session player world it is different. There reading is a must.

Just to be sure; I am not advocating against reading and I am a good reader myself. But that doesn't necessarily make me a better musician than someone who can't.

 

[jj.833]

I am not advocating against reading and I am a good reader myself. But that doesn't necessarily make me a better musician than someone who can't.

I would express this with the same words. Regarding the read or not to read question, I take it as a valid one. And I answer it with 'Many people who can't read say you don't need to read. But I know noone who can read, who would say that the ability to read lessened his musical abilities.'

I guess this is already off topic. Sorry.

 

[notabene]

Reading in classical sections is different than reading a solo part, or playing jazz/pop charts. In reading solo parts, or jazz/pop non-unison, non-harmony parts, it takes a good bit of crafting to turn the notation into music, especially in earlier music, but even in baroque music.
By odd chronological synchronicity, I recently rediscovered a Gabrielli cello piece which I played on bass. Sez I, "there's no music here". Then, since I have long admired Gabrielli, especially his brass music, I looked on Youtube and listened to a master cellist play it. It was wonderful, and you can tell it is the "written" piece, but if it had been notated even a fifty years later, it would have looked entirely different.

Here, I hope, is the notation: and here, the cellist :

 

[damonsmith]

Again, you are making a dumb argument against a point that wasn't even made in the first place. I advised someone the learn the clef and be a better musician for it. Meaning, adding a skill would get them one step further on the long road. Any musician, no matter how great, who cannot read this clef will be that much better when they learn it.
At no point was your imagined argument that a musician must read to be better than someone else.
The daily struggle should be with yourself, not as compared to others. So, any skill added, in this case reading tenor makes you better.

But that doesn't necessarily make me a better musician than someone who can't.

 

[Les Fret]

Again, you are making a dumb argument against a point that wasn't even made in the first place.

Not everyone can match your extreme high intelligence Damon!

Calling someones remarks not intelligent and dumb because they have a different opinion than you is pedant and not really nice...

 

[damonsmith]

It isn't a different opinion. You are misquoting me and arguing a point I never made.

Not everyone can match your extreme high intelligence Damon!

Calling someones remarks not intelligent and dumb because they have a different opinion than you is pedant and not really nice...

 

[Les Fret]

It isn't a different opinion. You are misquoting me and arguing a point I never made.

Still no reason to call someone dumb or not intelligent.

 

[damonsmith]

Yet another misquote. I called your argument dumb and your first post "not the most intelligent post you've made". I stand by both.

Still no reason to call someone dumb or not intelligent.