Double Bass Is there a reason tenor clef is used for thumb position?

[David Potts]

I agree with Damon here. Fact is we have to read what composers and publishers put in front of us, past and present. Compared to the struggle we all had when starting to read bass clef let alone fluently we are only speaking of mole hills here, not mountains.

 

[damonsmith]

In the scores in my collection, it seems to be used in a time when they didn't think we could do much TP! It seems to be used to contain the first octave of the G string!

But, this is also why it is worthwhile for non-classical players to learn. There is a ton of beautiful, singing, fairly easy to play works that use it. Lots of nice transcriptions that lay well on the bass, and it doesn't go to high.

 

[Neil Pye]

No, very true. I can read Tenor clef fine. You have to if you want to play solo repertoire. But just because I can doesn't mean I should have to! Why do we need it? If the music goes over the octave G, you're solidly in the middle of the treble clef, so cut out the middle man. That way we would only need to learn two clefs. It only takes a bit of common sense applied by composers and editors.

 

[Lee Moses]

No, very true. I can read Tenor clef fine. You have to if you want to play solo repertoire. But just because I can doesn't mean I should have to! Why do we need it? If the music goes over the octave G, you're solidly in the middle of the treble clef, so cut out the middle man. That way we would only need to learn two clefs. It only takes a bit of common sense applied by composers and editors.

I'm pretty sure everyone is in agreement with you here. I don't think anyone here thinks modern composers/arrangers/editors, etc. should commonly use tenor clef for double bass. But the fact remains that there is a lot of music presently out there which is notated in tenor clef, so you either need to read tenor clef to play it or you need to transcribe it in other clefs.

 

[Bruce Calin]

I recall several of the older guys(to me) who studied Simandl expressing the psychological barrier at 7th position( 3rd finger A on the g-string). Above that, usually expressed in tenor clef, meant that the music played there was going to automatically be more difficult and consequently more intimidating to play. When you get used to tenor clef the reading isn't an issue any longer but there can still be that little voice that says " this is going to be tougher and more uncomfortable to play". Reading the same notes in treble clef seems to have much less of that effect for me- just psychology, I guess.

 

[oldNewbie]

What happened to reading music should be split into two tasks : rhythm and pitch ? That was an early, early lesson for me and has served very well. Rhythm is the bigger difficulty, ime. Tenor clef is a good exercise, but more generally managing the problem into those two parts is good practice, too.

 

[damonsmith]

This version seems to not be available, so I am posting my tattered version. It is really nice to play and a great way to get this clef out of the way!

 

[Neil Pye]

I have that version too, and it's one of the worst culprits for unnecessary use of tenor clef. If it were in treble clef, it would look so much less intimidating for students, and be far easier to read. I do agree, though, it's a good one to get started

 

[peteswanson91]

I personally abhor it... would much prefer bass and treble clef

 

[oldNewbie]

This version seems to not be available, so I am posting my tattered version. It is really nice to play and a great way to get this clef out of the way!

Agreed, but another option might be to use the original key c minor , perfect on the bass clef.
Thanks for the inspiration Damon! The c minor goes on my stand today .

 

[ILIA]

I have that version too, and it's one of the worst culprits for unnecessary use of tenor clef. If it were in treble clef, it would look so much less intimidating for students, and be far easier to read. I do agree, though, it's a good one to get started

I'm curious what you think would be the worst culprit?

I nominate Levinson's edition of the Franck Sonata, which has a lot of music notated in tenor clef with 8va marked above. It would have been easier to notate everything in treble clef. Of course, when his edition came out, no one dared to complain to him about it, because he would just tell us to shut up and go practice.

 

[Sean Riddle]

Been reading some etudes from the second Storch-Hrabe book and Frank Proto's modern etudes book, focusing specifically on bettering my tenor clef reading. It's starting to come a bit more naturally to me.

My counterpoint teacher back in college always uses a brutal assignment at the start of the semester to weed out people that is over 10 pages (if I remember right) of species counterpoint. It started off easy with just treble and bass clef, but by the 3rd page it was mostly C clefs put in the most ridiculous places on the staff. That class kinda gave me a sour taste for tenor clef, but I've gotten over it so it's time to get this clef under my fingers.

 

[David Potts]

Honestly, you guys have turned a mole hill into a mountain. Our eyes and brains are capable of coping with much, much more information as we read music and the ability comes with practice, patience and experience. In the time taken to read all the above submissions we could all have mastered reading tenor clef ? Life could be worse, much worse, if our music was written out only in bass clef and at pitch using 8va for high notes. Imagine reading all those short little lines and spaces above and below with lots of sharps and flats and different keys AND fast 16th note passages.........

IMO Damon's example above shows good use of tenor clef because the lowest note A is in the middle line and the highest note D is not too far above the top line to recognise quickly. To see if using treble clef would make for easier reading I suggest copying out the transposition on a sheet of manuscript.

My usual overall comment is that context is everything.

 

[longfinger]

Another reason to learn other clefs is for reading transposed scores.

Trumpet or sax parts in Bb? Read them in tenor clef and mentally add in the needed accidentals.
Horn in F ? Read in mezzo-soprano clef and ditto.
Clarinet in A? Soprano clef and ditto.

We are already mentally mapping the notes and accidentals, whether with bass clef, or treble clef... just include a few more clefs in. Or not. It's not a big deal either way. If it's useful to you do it, if it's not useful to you, don't.

 

[oliebrice]

Been reading some etudes from Frank Proto's modern etudes book...

Off topic but not heard of this book and curious, can't find any other references to it on here. What do you think of it? He's an interesting composer

 

[Sean Riddle]

Off topic but not heard of this book and curious, can't find any other references to it on here. What do you think of it? He's an interesting composer

Ken Filiano recommended it to me a while back during a lesson. All of those etudes are hard but there's some very helpful material in there. Musically it starts with a more 2nd Viennese sound as well as Bartok and Stravinsky-ess and evolves into more of a serialist sound by the end. I've been spending some more time with it and it has been helpful with maintaining sight reading skills as well focusing on keeping healthy technique with more modernist sounding music.

 

[oliebrice]

Ken Filiano recommended it to me a while back during a lesson. All of those etudes are hard but there's some very helpful material in there. Musically it starts with a more 2nd Viennese sound as well as Bartok and Stravinsky-ess and evolves into more of a serialist sound by the end. I've been spending some more time with it and it has been helpful with maintaining sight reading skills as well focusing on keeping healthy technique with more modernist sounding music.

Sounds great! And any advice from Ken is worth taking seriously...

 

[damonsmith]

Completely agree. Reading hang ups are not worth having. While I have called some people lazy, the fact is I am lazy! I want the most direct route to music that will help my technique and ear.
I am not fantastic at sight transposing Bb or Eb charts, but otherwise, octave transposing either direction and any of the three clefs is no problem for me.
It also means I can work from a cello part if want to. I use the Fournier cello version for Bach. For my work, which is always as an equal partner in the music and sometimes solo, the solo bass rep. has been invaluable.

Honestly, you guys have turned a mole hill into a mountain. Our eyes and brains are capable of coping with much, much more information as we read music and the ability comes with practice, patience and experience. In the time taken to read all the above submissions we could all have mastered reading tenor clef ? Life could be worse, much worse, if our music was written out only in bass clef and at pitch using 8va for high notes. Imagine reading all those short little lines and spaces above and below with lots of sharps and flats and different keys AND fast 16th note passages.........

IMO Damon's example above shows good use of tenor clef because the lowest note A is in the middle line and the highest note D is not too far above the top line to recognise quickly. To see if using treble clef would make for easier reading I suggest copying out the transposition on a sheet of manuscript.

My usual overall comment is that context is everything.

I have that version too, and it's one of the worst culprits for unnecessary use of tenor clef. If it were in treble clef, it would look so much less intimidating for students, and be far easier to read. I do agree, though, it's a good one to get started

I mean, it is one page..it is less intimidating that a lot of pages in a row.