Double Bass Is "using arm weight" on the left hand a misnomer?

[TheGrooveDude]

I keep hearing people say use arm weight to finger notes. It seems impossible when standing. Do they actually mean pull from the shoulder?

I tried practicing pulling with the shoulder when fingering notes. But my thumb muscle got tired as I still need it to brace against my other fingers. Is there a way to avoid this or do I hv to get used to it?

 

[jasonrp]

For me, it all starts with how you position the bass against your body. I couldn't figure out how people were putting shoulder and pecs into fingering a note until I watched the discover double bass vid on how to hold it properly. When you are holding the bass the right way, you really don't even need your thumb. Watch the vid on youtube, it's a really good tutorial on how to hold the bass and how high it should be.

 

[Mr Ralph]

Watch Chris fitzgeralds left hand video. It will answer your questions. The Mr Karr how to drive a double bass series and Geoff Chalmers touch on it as well.

 

[sean_on_bass]

I usually hear the "arm weight" thing when referring to RIGHT hand technique. With left hand its always been "use the big muscles, back and shoulder"

 

[lcpierce]

It's a tough technique to get used to, especially when standing. The natural tendency is to squeeze the fingerboard, but that limits movement and can cause pain. I agree with Mr. Ralph - watch Chris Fitzgerald's video on the left hand. It's very clear. Also, Geoff Chalmers is an excellent teacher as well, so you might want to check his videos out.

 

[Asher S]

Agree with Jason and Lauren above re: starting with correct positioning of the bass against the body, and Geoff Chalmers' lessons, specifically
Standing Posture & Setting Double Bass Height. (L#5) - DiscoverDoubleBass
Double Bass Left Hand Technique Lesson (L#1) - DiscoverDoubleBass

Using finger 1 behind finger 2, and 1,2, and 3 behind finger 4 (the pinky) is also key. It's all in Geoff's excellent video lessons.

Also, when using "arm weight", it's not exactly straight towards the back of the bass. It's a bit on a slight diagonal across the fingerboard towards your body... Again, see Geoff's lessons on standing/positioning.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thanks for the references to the Left Hand video, Lauren and Ralph.

Using finger 1 behind finger 2, and 1,2, and 3 behind finger 4 (the pinky) is also key.

The traditional way is to anchor the whole hand to 1 and to rotate everything around that stopped point. This is what I call "Fixed Position" in my video on the subject.

However, this isn't this only way to approach the topic of stopping the strings with the left hand. There is also what I have come to call "Free/Vibrato position", as exemplified by Gary Karr here:



For more on this relaxed hand technique from a sitting posture, please refer to this video from Joel Quarrington:



There's also more discussion on this topic of "Free Position" from This post onward in the Joel Quarrington technique thread. Many advanced players have made some excellent observations and suggestions there.

Also, when using "arm weight", it's not exactly straight towards the back of the bass. It's a bit on a slight diagonal across the fingerboard towards your body... Again, see Geoff's lessons on standing/positioning.

EEMMV, of course, but when I speak of "arm weight", it's always in the context of the weight of the arm as directed by the position of the pivot point of the shoulder/torso joint rather than direct up/down Newtonian gravitational weight. As you and others have mentioned, the position of the bass and the body have a lot to do with this force and how to direct it. The mechanics for seated players and standing players are far different in their specifics, but the concept of leverage in general is something each player must learn to deal with from their own position no matter which position they adopt.

 

[vin*tone]

That's a great video Chris. Thanks for posting.

 

[TheGrooveDude]

Thanks for the input guys. When i press the string down i can feel my shoulder pulling and can feel the corner of the bass pressing into my body. but my thumb still feel tired after playing a while. Do you stand up guys think its ok?

 

[geoffbassist]

Thanks for the kind words about the my lessons and this is a great topic. Here's a few things that I think come into play when talking about the use of arm weight.

1. I think we use the term 'arm weight' to keep the focus on relaxation, but there is some use of the bigger muscles, shoulders and even the fingers etc. I always highlight the weight of the hand and the arm keeping the strings down, as that's the crucial part of this technique and hardest to achieve.

It's a complex movement to sum up in a single sentence and there is of course more at play than just the arm weight, but remember the more relaxed you are the better, so let the weight of the hand/arm do the work for you rather than squeezing with the fingers/thumb.

2. The main reason people struggle to achieve this standing is that they have the neck too vertical. The more vertical the bass is the less you can use arm weight to keep the strings down as the hand just wants to fall down the neck towards the body of the instrument.

If you lean the bass lean back towards you the neck is on an angle which allows you to utilise arm weight and allow you to pull the strings into the fingerboard using hand/arm weight. It's a lot easier to do sitting down as the bass tends to be leaning into you more, so if you are struggling with it I would start there, but remember if you play stood up then it's really important to try and not stand too close to the bass. Many of my students start out right, but end up shuffling closer towards the instrument making it vertical and impossible to use arm wight.

**caveat** There are some incredible bassists who do stand with the bass pretty much vertical (e.g Larry Grenadier). That's the great thing about the upright bass, there's more than one way to play it ...but in this instance the OP says "my thumb muscle got tired as I still need it to brace against my other fingers" and avoiding squeezing with the fingers and especially thumb is the exact reason we use arm weight so I strongly recommend persevering with this technique. If you squeeze it will effect many other seemingly unrelated aspects of your playing such as shifting which effects intonation etc...

I've also done a lesson on keeping the fingers relaxed whilst playing which is another aspect of this topic which you can check out here as hand shape could effect the use of your thumb also:
Double Bassists: How to Control Your Left Hand (L#43) - DiscoverDoubleBass

Plus I'm due to release a lesson on the role of the thumb in all of this and how to avoid squeezing next month.

I hope that's useful and I would also strongly recommend both Chris and Lauren's bass lessons.
Cheers Geoff

 

[TheGrooveDude]

Yes I do angle my bass. I think it is about 50-60 degrees from the floor. when I hook my fingers on the board and let my arm relax, isn't there a natural tendency to grip on with the thumb so that your hand won't slide down the fingerboard? OR. Should I actually pull from my shoulder. Is this active pulling motion what upright players call "arm weight"?

 

[geoffbassist]

Yes I do angle my bass. I think it is about 50-60 degrees from the floor. when I hook my fingers on the board and let my arm relax, isn't there a natural tendency to grip on with the thumb so that your hand won't slide down the fingerboard? OR. Should I actually pull from my shoulder. Is this active pulling motion what upright players call "arm weight"?

The thumb should be really relaxed and not gripping the neck at all. It just rests against the back of the neck helping to stabilise the hand and to measure distance when shifting...but it doesn't grip or push at all. The hand shape naturally brings it to rest against the back of the neck.

You could think of the shoulders as holding the arm open so it's on the right angle to keep your wrist straight. Eg, you need to open your arm pit slightly, then relax the arm a touch to allow its weight to pull the string down. There probably is some use of the shoulder/back muscles, but you should aim to let gravity do the work for you rather than by pulling the string with your arm.

The main thing is that if you are pushing with the thumb that's a sign of a problem so I would go back to learning how the movement feels sat down and then replicating it stood up. It will take time, but keep your arm/wrist straight, a good hand shape (i.e. dont collapse at the knuckle) and focus on relaxing to allow the weight of the arm to do the work of depressing the strings for you.

 

[TheGrooveDude]

Thanks Geoff, definitely will try out some of your ideas. I find the fact that the thumb supports the neck somewhat when angling the bass makes it tricky to not put pressure on it when fingering. BTW how is your angle when standing? i can't really see it from your videos as they're mostly half body shots.

 

[shepdave]

I'm a long-time lurker, pretty much first-time poster.

I worked with Geoff's videos when getting started with DB last summer, and I was able to understand his explanation of using "arm weight" pretty well.

For me, I think the test is to sometimes let go of the back of the neck with my thumb, to take the left thumb away from the neck. It doesn't work for me to play that way as a rule, because I need that stability to keep my hand in place. But if I can maintain sufficient note-stopping pressure without my thumb pushing, I know the weight of my arm and the shoulder and back muscles are basically doing the work.

It's helping me to read this advice about angling the bass. That works pretty well for me as well.

Dave

 

[mpf]

I just rewatched Geoff's video L#5, and I think he gives a pretty clear description regarding the standing angle there. I found that video really helpful as to the position of the bass up against the body, too. I had ignored that advice previously, for some reason, but I just tried it and man -- that makes it much easier on the left hand and makes the left thumb much less involved.

 

[geoffbassist]

Thanks Geoff, definitely will try out some of your ideas. I find the fact that the thumb supports the neck somewhat when angling the bass makes it tricky to not put pressure on it when fingering. BTW how is your angle when standing? i can't really see it from your videos as they're mostly half body shots.

No problem. I found a couple of pics to try and show the angle of the neck, they are not that clear but I hope they help... and here's the lesson where I describe how I find the angle of the bass.

In this pic my head is a bit further forward than when I'm playing as I was trying to keep it out the photo, but it hopefully shows the angle of the bass.

Here's a view of the hand.

I hope that's useful and I will try to cover many of the issues we touch on in this thread in my lesson which is due out in June on the left hand thumb. I think you bring up some good points and it's a though thing to describe so I will give it some thought.

Cheers Geoff

 

[Chef]

sub'd so I can find the videos later. thx

 

[TheGrooveDude]

I'm a long-time lurker, pretty much first-time poster.

I worked with Geoff's videos when getting started with DB last summer, and I was able to understand his explanation of using "arm weight" pretty well.

For me, I think the test is to sometimes let go of the back of the neck with my thumb, to take the left thumb away from the neck. It doesn't work for me to play that way as a rule, because I need that stability to keep my hand in place. But if I can maintain sufficient note-stopping pressure without my thumb pushing, I know the weight of my arm and the shoulder and back muscles are basically doing the work.

It's helping me to read this advice about angling the bass. That works pretty well for me as well.

Dave

How did you manage to take the thumb out when angling your bass? Are you sitting?

 

[Don Kasper]

[QUOTE="TheGrooveDude, post: 17380373, member: 247771"]How did you manage to take the thumb out when angling your bass? Are you sitting?[/QUOTE]

...Dude,
As a long-time "Stander" (37yrs.), I'd like to offer another approach to the "thumb" issue. I believe that the thumb should not be "taken out of the equation", (sorry Chris), but rather, should be included and involved in the total system from fingertips/knuckles/thumb/wrist/elbow/shoulder/chest/back/etc. If any portion of this path is tense/tight or inflexible it will lead to fatigue, tightness and even pain.

First, Geoff's (standing) approach is spot-on in terms of having the bass "lean" toward the player, as shown in his excellent video. I would encourage you to experiment with this concept, even to the point of NOT having the left-knee touching the back of the bass. I was taught to stand normally, feet slightly apart, with an even distribution of weight - not favoring or bending either the left or right leg. This ensures an even distribution of weight as well as a healthy posture. (It does take some getting used to - especially if you've sat in the past, or if you've bent your left leg in order to touch the back of the bass).

I would encourage you to keep the thumb (generally) under the fingers, in the classic "C" shape, not pointing back "hitchhiker" style, (which may work better for the "Sitters"). I believe the goal here is to use just enough energy (between the finger(s)/above and the thumb/below), to get the string to sound. Much like catching a ball (or an orange), you just need to use enough energy to make the catch, NOT make dust, or juice, (or worse, like "Lenny" in Of Mice and Men!). There is a tendency, especially in the beginning, to use more energy than is necessary, which can lead to the dreaded "clamping" effect. I would guess that if there is discomfort and or pain in the thumb, it is probably indicative of rampant system-wide tension and inflexibility throughout the left-side of the body, NOT just the thumb. (Enough "Thumb-Shaming" already!). There are exercises and strategies which can help identify and isolate these areas of tension and rigidity.

I was trained in the "Simandl" method for the first 4 years of study, which was a very valuable system of organizing the left-hand. I could play in tune, (generally), but my left-hand was somewhat "tight", and my shifts were not smooth. My second teacher (J.B. VanDemark) really opened me up to a more flexible approach, especially with the introduction of Vibrato (Arco). He had explored and was influenced by a "cellistic" (is this a word?...It is now!) approach, (as a student of cellist Paul Katz), beginning with the fingers being "non-perpendicular" to the string, slightly tilted back, (VERY Un-Simandl), and not keeping the rigid, 1 - 2 - 3,4, shape, except when necessary. The introduction of Vibrato study, with the bow, really exposed the inherent tension and rigidity in my left-side, and led to a more relaxed, efficient, and ultimately stronger left-side.
Thanks.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Nice post, Don. To be clear, I and others only recommend taking the thumb out of the equation as an exercise to gauge that the large muscles and the "weight" of the arm (see above) are being properly utilized before putting it back, since the #1 problem I see with students' left hand technique these days is excess squeezing/tension in the left hand.

I was trained in the "Simandl" method for the first 4 years of study, which was a very valuable system of organizing the left-hand. I could play in tune, (generally), but my left-hand was somewhat "tight", and my shifts were not smooth. My second teacher (J.B. VanDemark) really opened me up to a more flexible approach, especially with the introduction of Vibrato (Arco). He had explored and was influenced by a "cellistic" (is this a word?...It is now!) approach, (as a student of cellist Paul Katz), beginning with the fingers being "non-perpendicular" to the string, slightly tilted back, (VERY Un-Simandl), and not keeping the rigid, 1 - 2 - 3,4, shape, except when necessary. The introduction of Vibrato study, with the bow, really exposed the inherent tension and rigidity in my left-side, and led to a more relaxed, efficient, and ultimately stronger left-side.
Thanks.

Good to hear about your experience with VanDenmark and the non-perpendicular aspect. I think this is the kind of approach that is being discussed indirectly in the Joel Quarrington thread. The whole idea of the spread hand shape becoming less a matter of strict dogma and more a matter of "one important tool to carry in the toolbox" seems to be gaining more acceptance these days, and that's a good thing.