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Issue with a new band

M

malicant

Oct 14, 2011
72
2
#1
I've been jamming with a 3/4 piece cover band for the last few weeks. They're nice guys and I like most of the songs being played but I have an unshakable feeling that I'm not for the band.

My big worry is that I may not be challenged enough by the project and thus, my playing actually might deteriorate. I'm also probably the most skilled musician of the group (I really don't mean that in an egotistical way). This is a concern because when I've played with great players in the past, I've been improved by the experience, I worry that less experienced players might drag me down a little.

On the other hand, the band is fairly local and the gigs are all paid so I'd be making some cash. My dad advised me to do it simply for the fun but I'm really not sure. I don't want to waste anyone's time either. Has anyone ever been in this situation?
 
#2
One thing I've always learned is you can ALWAYS learn from others..even if they're beginners they usually do something (even if by accident) that makes you say "wow, never thought of it that way before.."

Plus you said they have paying gigs lined up and they are pretty cool so I say do it and have fun...I don't see how they'll drag you down. It's still better (in my book) than playing 'Portrait of Tracy' by yourself on Friday nights...
 
#4
malicant said:
My big worry is that I may not be challenged enough by the project and thus, my playing actually might deteriorate.
Click to expand...

I think in the short term (hard to quantify but let's say up to a year) as long as you are keeping up your chops by practicing and perhaps once in a while informally jamming with the same caliber musicians, you will be fine. Long term (and I'm talking year/s) I think you do lose something. Many moons ago when I got out of music schol I was a very good sight reader, had decent techniques and chops, rock solid time, etc. After a few years of playing gigs that excercised all these skills I settled into a routine of rock cover bands. Now years later I suppose I could reproduce Donna Lee if you gave me a week to woodshed it and I also found out that I still had some recent rudimentary sight reading skill left playing bass at a contemporary church service...but the point is nowhere near like I had when I was using that skill set to its fullest almost every day of the week.
 
#5
I'm sort of offended but not in an angry way. You can practice at home to keep your "chops". So playing with others who are not as "skilled" as you shouldn't be an issue.

I also want to say that usually when I read posts like this or talk to people who say stuff like this that they are jazz type guys or people who usually have "extended range" basses (more then 5 strings). I'm not saying you are, just saying that is typically my experience.

Space and time are much more important then any technical abilities you have. Playing and keeping time, driving the groove, with simple tunes is often harder then playing a billion notes, knowing all the scales and all the other things that are often confused with being skilled. If you can actually hold the less experienced and skilled guys together and cause the rhythm to be locked, tight and smooth, you are using and learning a skiill more important in my book.

Jeff Berlin, Mark Egan, Michael Manring, Jaco, Stanley Clarke and a host of others clearly have skills much better and deeper then mine. However, they don't or can't keep time and groove any better then me or a million other bassists, and often take so much of a lead role that they are just like a lead guitar. Restraint is something that is harder then any other skill on the bass.

That is my opinion, but I hope it gives you insight. The skills you would keep current playing with this band are just as important as the skills you would keep active playing with a more complex, "challenging" band.
 
#6
Trust you gut. If you feel like you need the split, then split. If your main goal is to become a better player, play with guys better than you.

I've done gigs with lesser musicians because it was fun. It was a group of guys I really liked and I made money.

Try to leave on good terms if you can. It sounds like they have gigs lined up and you don't want to leave them hanging. You could help them find a replacement that would be a good fit for the band and continue to play gigs until they find someone.
 
#7
Thanks lads.

I have another jam with them on thursday evening and they've asked me to go and see them preform on friday night the bassist I'll be replacing (he's moving). After that, they said I could commit myself or not so I'll do that anyway.

I just don't get this bad feeling though, I've never had it before :confused:
 
#8
TRichardsbass maybe some others are offended to read you.

I had the same issue 2 weeks ago and I left, and found a guy to replace me 2 days later !

Why shall we always play with conditions that doesn't suit us ? Just to be a kind person? everyone can be kind, but assuming we're not doing what we love, it's another affair, i call that "intellectual honnesty" .

Music is not like working in an industrial factory, and yes i assume the fact that I left the band to do something else like jazz, with a 5 string, because... I love jazz! but i'm also conscient that my actual level was certainly good enough to gig with my ex-band, but when that band wants you to be present at 3/4 rehersals a week, 4h each, and not doing any gig before 6 months cos' the guitarist tells you "you know i'm learning delta blues, even if i'm a pro with 20 years practice", sorry but ... no!! Don't want to waste, or don't want to feel that maybe i could waste my time ! I'm not a pro jazz player, and I need to work for that, not to waste 12/16 hours a week in things i don't feel!

I'm not a kind guy surely, but i'm honest: if i don't feel it, if i don't give the best of myself, i leave, simple !!

And worse of it all: your pals will certainly have the feeling that you are not giving your best, and that will certainly affect them "you don't like the music? something wrong? a problem with us?". Beeing honest is the best way, trust me.
 
#9
rimbaud said:
TRichardsbass maybe some others are offended to read you.

I had the same issue 2 weeks ago and I left, and found a guy to replace me 2 days later !

Why shall we always play with conditions that doesn't suit us ? Just to be a kind person? everyone can be kind, but assuming we're not doing what we love, it's another affair, i call that "intellectual honnesty" .

Music is not like working in an industrial factory, and yes i assume the fact that I left the band to do something else like jazz, with a 5 string, because... I love jazz! but i'm also conscient that my actual level was certainly good enough to gig with my ex-band, but when that band wants you to be present at 3/4 rehersals a week, 4h each, and not doing any gig before 6 months cos' the guitarist tells you "you know i'm learning delta blues, even if i'm a pro with 20 years practice", sorry but ... no!! Don't want to waste, or don't want to feel that maybe i could waste my time ! I'm not a pro jazz player, and I need to work for that, not to waste 12/16 hours a week in things i don't feel!

I'm not a kind guy surely, but i'm honest: if i don't feel it, if i don't give the best of myself, i leave, simple !!

And worse of it all: your pals will certainly have the feeling that you are not giving your best, and that will certainly affect them "you don't like the music? something wrong? a problem with us?". Beeing honest is the best way, trust me.
Click to expand...

Sorry Rimmy. Not my intention to offend you. My point, maybe made better, is that there is a dividing line in our bass community between having Yngwie Malmsteen type playing ability and simple Bill Black style. If you aren't tearing up a fretboard there are a lot who believe you aren't talented at all, and they also tend to see it as inferior. The same for the music style you choose to play. I've heard people say I have no talent because I don't slap, tap or pop (I can slap and pop a bit, but don't tap at all.) I've also been chosen over some of these same players for sessions because I have impeccable time and can play the world around a click.

I agree, if the situation bores you and you hate it, then leave. But if your only reasoning, as the OP states, is because you think playing that style or with those musicians over time will "dumb you down", then I have an issue.

Best musical experience I ever had? Getting to sit in for a couple of songs with the Ramones in the early '80s. Three chords and basically pedalling roots, but timing and presence were ultimately important. I felt unworthy for a while after my experience, and I did well according to Joey.

I sit in the open jam with the members of the Jersey Shore Jazz and Blues foundation as well as at the local AFM meeting, and I don't find that any more or less challenging because of the notes they play. I am clearly, in technique, inferior to most of the guys there who have probably a combined 600 years of experience. I was surprised to learn that many prefer my playing in that audience.

So, again, for me it's just the discussion about playing with people of a lower level and feeling that will dumb you down and you will lose chops. I keep my chops through practice, not playing live. Playing live displays my chops, but doesn't hone it.
 
#10
What if the OP means the other players he works with aren't so good at holding a groove? I've worked with people who I've felt are below my skill level and what I consider below my skill level is not the amount of notes played. The people I consider below my skill level are; guitarists who think playing funk or soul requires they play the typical "Big Payback" guitar part, but with poor time and no groove. Drummers who don't listen, who mess up entrances and endings on a regular basis, who drag or rush regularly, who don't take constructive criticism well, I don't consider them at my skill level. Some drummers who can't groove so well, but nail all the entrances and endings, listen, and except criticism well they are at a higher skill level. I have also worked with players who can do all of the above and do it well. I've also worked in situations where I was the weakest player and had to rely on my ability to listen and play within my strengths to keep up. Even in those situations it was never about how many notes one can play.

I think skills means more than just how many notes one can play. In fact playing a lot of notes is not a skill in my book. When I have to work with people who don't have the basic listening skills, ability to focus, and desire to improve as a musician it's a real drag. Those are people I consider "below my skill level."
 
#11
TRichardsbass said:
Sorry Rimmy. Not my intention to offend you. My point, maybe made better, is that there is a dividing line in our bass community between having Yngwie Malmsteen type playing ability and simple Bill Black style. If you aren't tearing up a fretboard there are a lot who believe you aren't talented at all, and they also tend to see it as inferior. The same for the music style you choose to play. I've heard people say I have no talent because I don't slap, tap or pop (I can slap and pop a bit, but don't tap at all.) I've also been chosen over some of these same players for sessions because I have impeccable time and can play the world around a click.

I agree, if the situation bores you and you hate it, then leave. But if your only reasoning, as the OP states, is because you think playing that style or with those musicians over time will "dumb you down", then I have an issue.

Best musical experience I ever had? Getting to sit in for a couple of songs with the Ramones in the early '80s. Three chords and basically pedalling roots, but timing and presence were ultimately important. I felt unworthy for a while after my experience, and I did well according to Joey.

I sit in the open jam with the members of the Jersey Shore Jazz and Blues foundation as well as at the local AFM meeting, and I don't find that any more or less challenging because of the notes they play. I am clearly, in technique, inferior to most of the guys there who have probably a combined 600 years of experience. I was surprised to learn that many prefer my playing in that audience.

So, again, for me it's just the discussion about playing with people of a lower level and feeling that will dumb you down and you will lose chops. I keep my chops through practice, not playing live. Playing live displays my chops, but doesn't hone it.
Click to expand...

You sat in with THE RAMONES??????

You are now my hero.
 
#12
mellowinman said:
You sat in with THE RAMONES??????

You are now my hero.
Click to expand...

I didn't say it for the admiration. So please, thank you but I am not looking for that.

I said it to make the point, as many musicians find the Ramones, a lot of punk, and Gene Simmons to be inferior musically. I'm sure there are a bunch of guys here who did a song or two here and there with them back in the day. If you were in the scene, it happened, just depended on where you were or who was having the gigd/party.

I was just lucky enough to live and play in the NYC area. Just being here was and is a huge advantage. I have had the opportunity, along with many others, to run into legendary musicians in a lot of the clubs and after hours coffee houses where we all would just jam or sing acapella.

A great bass player and friend of mine used to go to see Les Paul play every Monday in the city. He was asked to sit in for two songs with Les and his guys about a year before Les passed. We are lucky. Not heroes.
 
#14
Michael Case said:
I think skills means more than just how many notes one can play. In fact playing a lot of notes is not a skill in my book. When I have to work with people who don't have the basic listening skills, ability to focus, and desire to improve as a musician it's a real drag. Those are people I consider "below my skill level."
Click to expand...

I look at being able to play lots of notes similar to being able to type fast as a writer. It may look flashy, and sometimes can help you produce, but it has no bearing on the quality of the output.
 
#15
In my almost 30 years of playing, I have shared the stage with some very talented individuals & some not so talented. I agree that we all learn & grow from any situation so we shouldn't judge solely on musicianship or skills. I played with a "jam band" that was nothing short of a Saturday get together with us all saying "lets try this." What I took away from that experience was learning to play on the fly, improvising, watching the guitarist and coming up with my own basslines based on my foggy memory of the song.

The group I'm in now is a rag tag collection of musicians that aren't the greatest but we have fun and that energy/vibe is transferred to the audience. Net result is that in 2 yrs of existance, we are playing venues & shows that 20 yr veteran bands are still dreaming about.

On the other hand, we can't stay situation we don't really like or want to be in. In the end you have to be happy.
 
#17
playing in an band with less talented dudes can definitely hurt your playing if you are gigging like crazy (unless you have unlimited free time to shed). i spent over 2 years with these blues guys that paid well BUT every song was the same minor chord progression & all of the licks were very similar. the drummer drove the band but didn't groove with them (still doesn't). playing the same minor pentatonic over & over with these guys definitely hurt my playing even though I was shedding in my free time. there just wasn’t enough free time to count.
 
#18
Lots of ways to keep yourself working hard and learning, even on easier material.

Try a different playing style (pick switch to finger, finger switch to pick).
Work up a new instrument (fretless, 8 or 12 string, etc).
Play songs without looking at the neck.
Work on harmony or even lead vocals.

You get the idea.
 
#19
I don't think that playing with people who haven't yet caught up to you will harm your playing; however, if the feeling isn't right, then that's answer enough and there's some factor other than level of ability that's bothering you. Sometimes the feeling's just not right, and there's no explanation for it.
 
#20
I agree with Tom, Don't be so sure you can't learn from these guys ( assuming the "inferior" players at at least decent and competent)

Playing with superior players , jumping in the "deep end" , definitely forces you to step it up and is of course an awesome way to learn. The motivation and the desired level of playing are obvious.

However, in your situation, you have to set the goals and find the motivation yourself. Maybe you won't be thrown difficult technical material, but your attention is freed for working on your dynamics, timing, phrasing, stage presence and performance aspects, audience communication, and especially listening.
 

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