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Issues With Live Sound

BottomsUp99

BottomsUp99

Guest
May 8, 2014
8
1
54
Pipersville, Pennsylvania
#1
I've been playing live pretty regularly in a few rock bands now, but I've definitely got some gaps in my knowledge of live sound that experienced TB'ers can probably help me with. My most steady gig is with a 6 piece cover/dance music band (2 guitars, vocalist, keys, drummer, and me). We do our own sound with the board on stage. I am not DI'd, and just use my rig for both on-stage and the room. With this lineup, we are typically squeezed for space, and I'm often within 3-4 feet of my cab, the drummer, and the lead guitarist's Twin Reverb (OMG that thing gets loud). I know there are some best practices regarding bass standing waves/distance to have between the player and the cab, but what's the best compromise to make in order to be able to hear myself and know my level in the room mix? Does everyone DI for even small to medium sized settings? Maybe we're all just too loud? My rig: Ampeg PF-500 head through a single Genz-Benz Neo 2x12.
Also, this cabinet seems to be REALLY directional/distance-sensitive. I mean the volume seems completely different just walking around on stage while playing.
Thanks for any schooling you guys can offer.
 
#4

As RoadRanger indicated, there’s no reason to be worried about standing wave issues related to your distance from the amp. If space permits, it would be good to tilt back your amp and aim it at your head so that you can hear it better. That would be good advice for your guitar playing buddy, too. And if the venue is small, then yes I’d expect that with a 6-piece band you all are too loud. Have you had someone out in the audience measure with a sound level meter? Depending on the venue, if you’re over ~85 dB, you may be too loud. Perhaps you could convince the drummer to use quiet sticks.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
Pedulla Club #45


 
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#6
WayneP said:
As RoadRanger indicated, there’s no reason to be worried about standing wave issues related to your distance from the amp. If space permits, it would be good to tilt back your amp and aim it at your head so that you can hear it better. That would be good advice for your guitar playing buddy, too. And if the venue is small, then yes I’d expect that with a 6-piece band you all are too loud. Have you had someone out in the audience measure with a sound level meter? Depending on the venue, if you’re over ~85 dB, you may be too loud. Perhaps you could convince the drummer to use quiet sticks.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
Pedulla Club #45
Click to expand...
Good ideas. I thought about putting my cab on the opposite side of the stage from me, sort of on an angle. Short of having someone I trust in the room to tell me where I'm at, how much benefit would I get from getting distance (still on stage) between me and my speaker?
 
#7
What PA is the band using for vocals? Does the key player use a combo? I would consider adding a sub and monitors to a PA so you can add a little bass to the main mix. A little can go a long way. Spreading out on stage usually isn't the best idea.
 
#8
lokikallas said:
What PA is the band using for vocals? Does the key player use a combo? I would consider adding a sub and monitors to a PA so you can add a little bass to the main mix. A little can go a long way. Spreading out on stage usually isn't the best idea.
Click to expand...

Two older Crown 1000W PA's. One for the mains (Peavey 115's) and one for monitors (I'm not through any of that at present). Keys guy does use his own combo and monitor. Should I agitate to get on the board?
 
#9
BottomsUp99 said:
Two older Crown 1000W PA's. One for the mains (Peavey 115's) and one for monitors (I'm not through any of that at present). Keys guy does use his own combo and monitor. Should I agitate to get on the board?
Click to expand...
I would say not without subs in your PA.. you'll muddy up the tops and possibly make it worse!
 
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#10
Get a cheap wireless and go out front during sound check. Set you tone and level then leave it alone... Do try to get as far away from your rig as possible on stage. In one room II used to play, I put my cab on the opposite side of the drum kit. It made a big difference for me. The extra few feet really helped with the dispersion on a shallow stage.

Find a way to have the a Twin fall from a very high stage or truck bed... That will help with Everybody's hearing except the Guitard's... He's already deaf... Twin'itis strikes again...
 
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#14
WayneP said:
As RoadRanger indicated, there’s no reason to be worried about standing wave issues related to your distance from the amp. If space permits, it would be good to tilt back your amp and aim it at your head so that you can hear it better. That would be good advice for your guitar playing buddy, too. And if the venue is small, then yes I’d expect that with a 6-piece band you all are too loud. Have you had someone out in the audience measure with a sound level meter? Depending on the venue, if you’re over ~85 dB, you may be too loud. Perhaps you could convince the drummer to use quiet sticks.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
Pedulla Club #45
Click to expand...

Hey Wayne, been a while. I like the part about "if" you are over 85db.

Good to see your name pop up, and as always, solid advice.
 
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#16
i ran sound on stage for many years .. gotta do a quick sound check for sure ... i always ran everything thru the PA , if nothing else , just to help fill and spread out my bass so i didn't play so loud on stage ... but we had subs ... my keyboard amp was quite directional , so yeh , i would aim it at my head ... as the gtr player should ... i sang , played keys / bass ... always had to watch drowning out my vocal monitor ...

and a wireless is a useful tool to get out and see what things sound like as the room fills up ... and to harass people ... and stop by the bar .. !

after a while as i learned how the rooms sounded ... it got much easier ...!
 
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#17
Get your cab up off the ground and closer to your ears.
Many people will say no, because you might lose a theoretical 3db of lows, but the benefits are well worth it.
You will be able to hear your tone and playing much more clearly, and so will the audience.

There's a simple reason (besides all the DSP technology) why modern concert PA systems are line arrays flown really high--vertical stacks of speakers up high fill rooms more accurately.
 
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#18
Thanks for all the input guys. Next gig (in 2 weeks) I will put the 212 on the other side of the drummer from me, and at least try it either tilted or off the floor. I know I've seen some number of threads on here debating that whole topic. I'll consider a wireless, but I don't move around that much on stage, and just like being physically "connected" to everything. I'll insist on taking more time for sound checking so that everyone (or at least me :) ) can dial it in from both the floor and stage. This is really basic stuff, and has never been an issue in the 3 piece heavy trio I also play in. I sent some thoughts to the guitar player with the Twin (who also does the sound). He already wrote back to agree, and remarked that often he can't hear himself depending on where he is in relation to his amp, and admitted he sometimes turns up/boosts during numbers to cover off. >:|
 
#20
If your guitarist has to use the Twin then it should be on a stand, pointed up at him. Decent analog crossovers are cheap and plentiful on Craigslist. I'm partial to the DBX 223 in the used, under a hundred category...

I use a cheap Line 6 wireless XDR ? from a few years back. There is some tone suck so after I get things dialed, I switch back to cable... I also leave a little headroom available on my pedal board so that if I can't easily reach my amp, I can come up if necessary.

In my band I mix from stage most of the time. Even in lower volume gig's the kick and bass are in the PA along with everything else. It allows us to be a little quieter on stage. Even without the subs. If it's outside or a louder indoor room, then I bring at least 1 sub. I feel that it provides a more 'integrated' sound. The audience seems to hear it as well... We cover a pretty wide variety of stuff so my drummer can get out front during sound check and help too.

Nice to see that your guitarist recognizes that there are issues and is interred in getting them fixed.

Bands... It's a team sport...
 
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