After reading the J. Newsted thread, I'm amazed at the number of people that think that bassists can only play one style!! This happens with every genre, every player. Don't stereotype!! There are a lot of bassists known for particular styles, but I would not be surprised if most of them can do a lot of other styles. Probably do them well too. Who knows, Larry Graham might be a pretty wicked detuned, all downstroke pick player!
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It amazes me!!!
- Thread starter rsautrey
- Start date
While I am sure that it is true about most players (except maybe Fieldy...
)
If we have no samples of a players extended abilities...we can only judge them on the style we usually hear them play.
Is it fair to assume that...that is the style at which they are best?
Also, your point does not apply exclusively to rock players. People always talk about what a great jazz player Jaco was....but I wonder how many know, that he could rock out, or get funky, with the bst of them. Enough people do know however...and that is why he is still so revered today.
)If we have no samples of a players extended abilities...we can only judge them on the style we usually hear them play.
Is it fair to assume that...that is the style at which they are best?
Also, your point does not apply exclusively to rock players. People always talk about what a great jazz player Jaco was....but I wonder how many know, that he could rock out, or get funky, with the bst of them. Enough people do know however...and that is why he is still so revered today.
I agree, we can only judge by the style we hear them play. As for Fieldy, he probably sits around on a Sunday afternoon with a P bass w/flatwounds, groovin' to some old school Motown.......Possibly?
heh, I read somewhere that Fieldy used to sit around and play jazz, but I might be crazy, but yah people always just assume that if they see you playing one thing that that is all you can play. I play in a punk band, and the music doesn't seem very hard to play, but when we all play together it sounds good, but when im at home i dont spend my hours just seeing how fast i can play one note i spend time working on scales, or exersizes, or playing jazz or funk.
-ChronicPain
-ChronicPain
yeah im in a metal band ... not korn metal. but nevermore/iron maiden metal and people think thats all i like ... i swear funk is where its at!! fieldy ewww who cares what other styles that guy plays? hahaha
Ya know......jazz is a funny music. Jazz, to be played well, really must be studied and practiced. You really have to know harmony, know the history of the different schools of jazz, and most importantly have really well developed ears to play this music properly. As well as having the chops to play very difficult pieces at incredibly fast tempos. And, since good jazzers consider themselves in a way to be preservers of a hallowed tradition, accomplished jazz musicians are notoriously unforgiving of untrained and inexperienced players attempting to play jazz. Especially if an untrained, inexperienced player has an arrogant attitude.
It's popular to name-drop jazz in musical conversation. Telling musicians that you're influenced by Miles Davis or Coltrane guarantees a certain "hip" cachet. Telling people that you play jazz gives you a certain intimidating quality ("He must be good, he plays jazz"), at least until your bluff is called and you find yourself at a jam session trying to fake your way thru "Night In Tunisia".
This is why I tend to be suspicious of an individual's motives, credibility, and ability when he or she mentions "all the jazz gigs I did back in college" in the first paragraph of the Bass Player interview, and the fact that "I can't read a note of music, I just groove with the feel" in the last paragraph. H-Kube
It's popular to name-drop jazz in musical conversation. Telling musicians that you're influenced by Miles Davis or Coltrane guarantees a certain "hip" cachet. Telling people that you play jazz gives you a certain intimidating quality ("He must be good, he plays jazz"), at least until your bluff is called and you find yourself at a jam session trying to fake your way thru "Night In Tunisia".
This is why I tend to be suspicious of an individual's motives, credibility, and ability when he or she mentions "all the jazz gigs I did back in college" in the first paragraph of the Bass Player interview, and the fact that "I can't read a note of music, I just groove with the feel" in the last paragraph. H-Kube
HyperkubeTheBassAss
Bravo...well said...I agree with you completely, word for word.
Dropping "jazz" into your list of styles is so cliche today that I pretty much dismiss it as soon as I hear it..."Yeah, I play mostly jazz, blues, rock" when what they mean is "Yeah, I play lots of Zeppelin and Skynyrd"...I find it even moreso with guitar players than bassists. And if you think faking your way through Night in Tunisia is hard on bass, try comping on guitar!
Glad you said what you did, Hyper.
-GM
[Edited by gmstudio99 on 09-12-2000 at 08:56 AM]
Bravo...well said...I agree with you completely, word for word.
Dropping "jazz" into your list of styles is so cliche today that I pretty much dismiss it as soon as I hear it..."Yeah, I play mostly jazz, blues, rock" when what they mean is "Yeah, I play lots of Zeppelin and Skynyrd"...I find it even moreso with guitar players than bassists. And if you think faking your way through Night in Tunisia is hard on bass, try comping on guitar!
Glad you said what you did, Hyper.
-GM
[Edited by gmstudio99 on 09-12-2000 at 08:56 AM]
Are we now saying...that a person cannot be influenced by a style of music, unless they have a degree in music and can play every piece perfectly?
I am influenced by MANY styles....in which few, I am fluent. But, you CAN hear the influence of those styles in my playing.
I am influenced by MANY styles....in which few, I am fluent. But, you CAN hear the influence of those styles in my playing.
Ed.....You are absolutely right that a LOT of people feign
knowledge about a musical style to heighten their "image".
But....when I played trumpet...I knew several players who could play ANYTHING without knowing ANY musical theory. I'm not saying that we didn't work out the details of the song, but we would simply give the the overall idea...and damn if they couldn't play exactly what we wanted. My best friend was a sax player who could do this. And the reason I played trumpet, instead of bass back then, was because of a guy who picked up the bass for the first time...and played Cream perfectly. He also played trombone with a jazz band.
I believe that there ARE "musical savants"...but they are few and far between. So for the rest of us.....knowing some theory will help make us much better players Especially for me on bass!
Anyway...I do understand what you are saying and for the most part....you are right.
knowledge about a musical style to heighten their "image".
But....when I played trumpet...I knew several players who could play ANYTHING without knowing ANY musical theory. I'm not saying that we didn't work out the details of the song, but we would simply give the the overall idea...and damn if they couldn't play exactly what we wanted. My best friend was a sax player who could do this. And the reason I played trumpet, instead of bass back then, was because of a guy who picked up the bass for the first time...and played Cream perfectly. He also played trombone with a jazz band.
I believe that there ARE "musical savants"...but they are few and far between. So for the rest of us.....knowing some theory will help make us much better players Especially for me on bass!
Anyway...I do understand what you are saying and for the most part..
..you are right."You CAN say that you have done all you wanted to do, but music is an endless path, a bottomless well, that will ALWAYS reward further exploration..."
Okay Ed...I think I can now see your point more clearly. I know that the above statement describes MY feelings about music...exactly!
I always explored and pushed the limits on my trumpet and the further I go with my bass....the path opens up more to me. But...with each step...I realize how much I need to learn, to help me along the way. Whatever natural musical talents I am blessed with....they just are not enough. I need a "roadmap" to help me along the way.
Okay Ed...I think I can now see your point more clearly. I know that the above statement describes MY feelings about music...exactly!
I always explored and pushed the limits on my trumpet and the further I go with my bass....the path opens up more to me. But...with each step...I realize how much I need to learn, to help me along the way. Whatever natural musical talents I am blessed with....they just are not enough. I need a "roadmap" to help me along the way.
>Are we now saying...that a person cannot be influenced by a style of music, unless they have a degree in music and can play every piece perfectly?
I am influenced by MANY styles....in which few, I am fluent. But, you CAN hear the influence of those styles in my playing.<
No, I'm not saying that at all. For example, I'm "influenced" by reggae music. I like and respect a lot of the players, and even jam sometimes with reggae musicians. But I don't call myself a reggae musician because I'm not conversant with the music's history and the attendant political issues. It's one thing to say that you dig Family Man and know some of his tunes, and another to state that you are a representative of his tradition.
I used to play with an amazing tenor player, a veteran of many Latin bands in NYC. Willie could sight read almost any head, but he knew no theory, and was confused by chord charts. He could also walk on to a jazz gig and play a night's worth of tunes he'd never heard before. If there was no chart he would lay out on the head, and jump into the solo. The first chorus he would start with blues licks in key; by the second or third chorus he had the chords in his ear and could fly. He also sang a bit and played decent piano, by ear. He called himself "just a horn player, you know? Whatever you got, I try to fit in". I also know a pianist who could cop progressions that fast when he was in high school, but he was a really exceptional talent, all around. So yeah, there's a few guys with amazing ears who can do that, but they're usually the guys who have a lot of experience covering a lot of styles. My beef is with the "jazz musicians" who can play the line to "All Blues" and nothing else. H-Kube
I am influenced by MANY styles....in which few, I am fluent. But, you CAN hear the influence of those styles in my playing.<
No, I'm not saying that at all. For example, I'm "influenced" by reggae music. I like and respect a lot of the players, and even jam sometimes with reggae musicians. But I don't call myself a reggae musician because I'm not conversant with the music's history and the attendant political issues. It's one thing to say that you dig Family Man and know some of his tunes, and another to state that you are a representative of his tradition.
I used to play with an amazing tenor player, a veteran of many Latin bands in NYC. Willie could sight read almost any head, but he knew no theory, and was confused by chord charts. He could also walk on to a jazz gig and play a night's worth of tunes he'd never heard before. If there was no chart he would lay out on the head, and jump into the solo. The first chorus he would start with blues licks in key; by the second or third chorus he had the chords in his ear and could fly. He also sang a bit and played decent piano, by ear. He called himself "just a horn player, you know? Whatever you got, I try to fit in". I also know a pianist who could cop progressions that fast when he was in high school, but he was a really exceptional talent, all around. So yeah, there's a few guys with amazing ears who can do that, but they're usually the guys who have a lot of experience covering a lot of styles. My beef is with the "jazz musicians" who can play the line to "All Blues" and nothing else. H-Kube
>>>No, I'm not saying that at all. For example, I'm "influenced" by reggae music. I like and respect a lot of the players, and even jam sometimes with reggae musicians. But I don't call myself a reggae musician because I'm not conversant with the music's history and the attendant political issues. It's one thing to say that you dig Family Man and know some of his tunes, and another to state that you are a representative of his tradition.<<<
...But that's not where this discussion started at all - someone said that they ignore it whenever someone says they're influenced by jazz, or did jazz gigs at college, which is a completely unfair assessment of where a lot of muscians are at. I've played on numberous gospel albums - there are probably somewhere in the region of 150-200,000 CDs around the world with my bass playing on them - how many of the people listening to those are aware that I also do jazz gigs/solo gigs/experimental stuff/metal/hip-hop/reggae - very very few. If I was interviewed by some gospel mag, and said at the beginning 'well, I often play solo, and do a lot of jazz gigs' would that be BS? Of course not - I do MORE solo stuff than I do gospel, it's just that the gospel CDs are the ones that have sold the most copies... so far... I've got a few more solo albums to sell before I reach 200K
)
be careful of knocking those who happen to have achieved success. I've interviewed many of the world's leading session bassists, soloists and bassists from loads of the world's top bands, and have to say that I've not met one who came across as a bull****ter, from Hugh McDonald to Abe Laboriel, John Myung to Patitucci, Michael Manring to Lee Sklar - they were to a man pleasant, friendly people with no axe to grind, and no line to spin about how great they are... It's the guys at NAMM that are desparate to make it that scare me - I've met so many who will spin those lines about all the gigs they're doing, then offer to 'jam' and proceed to slap poorly executed 32nd notes for about 8 minutes before putting the bass down satisfied that they've done a good days work! It really scares me...
Steve
http://www.steve-lawson.co.uk
...But that's not where this discussion started at all - someone said that they ignore it whenever someone says they're influenced by jazz, or did jazz gigs at college, which is a completely unfair assessment of where a lot of muscians are at. I've played on numberous gospel albums - there are probably somewhere in the region of 150-200,000 CDs around the world with my bass playing on them - how many of the people listening to those are aware that I also do jazz gigs/solo gigs/experimental stuff/metal/hip-hop/reggae - very very few. If I was interviewed by some gospel mag, and said at the beginning 'well, I often play solo, and do a lot of jazz gigs' would that be BS? Of course not - I do MORE solo stuff than I do gospel, it's just that the gospel CDs are the ones that have sold the most copies... so far... I've got a few more solo albums to sell before I reach 200K
) be careful of knocking those who happen to have achieved success. I've interviewed many of the world's leading session bassists, soloists and bassists from loads of the world's top bands, and have to say that I've not met one who came across as a bull****ter, from Hugh McDonald to Abe Laboriel, John Myung to Patitucci, Michael Manring to Lee Sklar - they were to a man pleasant, friendly people with no axe to grind, and no line to spin about how great they are... It's the guys at NAMM that are desparate to make it that scare me - I've met so many who will spin those lines about all the gigs they're doing, then offer to 'jam' and proceed to slap poorly executed 32nd notes for about 8 minutes before putting the bass down satisfied that they've done a good days work! It really scares me...
Steve
http://www.steve-lawson.co.uk
>Certainly given time most players develop a vocabulary of tricks that can get them through almost any situation, but that's NOT the same thing as improvising music on a deep level<
Right. My post was just state that yes, a very accomplished player is technically able to get thru a gig, but this does not make you a real jazz musician. Willie never called himself a "jazz musician"- just a musician who could play jazz. There's a difference. H-Kube
Right. My post was just state that yes, a very accomplished player is technically able to get thru a gig, but this does not make you a real jazz musician. Willie never called himself a "jazz musician"- just a musician who could play jazz. There's a difference. H-Kube
I'm just say that I tend to agree with Steve and haven't read any interviews like this - but then maybe that's because I just skip past the ones with people I don't think will be very interesting - e.g. Fieldy as everybody has mentioned his name already.
Maybe someone could point out an interview as an example - I keep all my copies of BP and other magazines, so would be able to find the quotes.
I think Jazz is a very broad area and people will undoubtedly have heard something and will probably be interested in improvising, so it's inevitable in a way that it might get mentioned, but I can't say I've ever heard anyone use this as a means of "bragging"...
Influence - the power or capacity of causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways.
That's what Mirriam-Webster says, but that's a pretty loose definition, huh?
I believe this is a tough issue. Based upon the above-mentioned definition, I could say that I'm influenced by the sound the clicking of my keyboard makes, the rhythmic thump of my tires as I drive down a cobblestone road, etc etc. In fact, many of the most "influential" musicians have stated that they hear music in everything in everyday life. Nowadays, we tend to think of influences as "the main type of music an individual listens to, wherein patterns, concepts, or ideas from that musician can easily be directly traced back to said genre." Okay, that's a quick off-the-top-of-my-head definition.
There are several things I tend to agree with that have been said. I think jazz is a very honed skill that relies more heavily upon "musical knowledge" than some other genres. By "musical knowledge" you could say, harmony, theory, meter, whatever. I know I might get slammed for that statement, but let's be realistic, a 2 month old bassist can easily be taught to thump out 8th note roots over a two chord pattern, than to understand the intricacies of modal jazz. What I want to make clear, is that I'm definitely not saying that means one type of music is "better" than another, just that it's more involved or complex. Hell, my cell phone is a more complex instrument than my eyeglasses, but...oh what's my point?
The point is, I do really think that a lot of people "name drop" in regards to jazz, and saying they've played jazz, been influenced by jazz, or listen to jazz. Someone here said it best, there is a very clear difference between a jazz musician and someone who plays jazz. A jazz musician is someone who really lives and breathes the music, they understand the subtleties, history, and concepts behind the genre. Obviously all music has history, but there are not really many styles that can claim as rich and important a history as jazz. Jazz's history is not just that of music, but of celebration, oppression, redemption, acceptance, and more obstacles than I could imagine.
I don't know about one specific individual, but personally, I also tend to take comments regarding one's influence by jazz with many grains of salt.
That's what Mirriam-Webster says, but that's a pretty loose definition, huh?
I believe this is a tough issue. Based upon the above-mentioned definition, I could say that I'm influenced by the sound the clicking of my keyboard makes, the rhythmic thump of my tires as I drive down a cobblestone road, etc etc. In fact, many of the most "influential" musicians have stated that they hear music in everything in everyday life. Nowadays, we tend to think of influences as "the main type of music an individual listens to, wherein patterns, concepts, or ideas from that musician can easily be directly traced back to said genre." Okay, that's a quick off-the-top-of-my-head definition.
There are several things I tend to agree with that have been said. I think jazz is a very honed skill that relies more heavily upon "musical knowledge" than some other genres. By "musical knowledge" you could say, harmony, theory, meter, whatever. I know I might get slammed for that statement, but let's be realistic, a 2 month old bassist can easily be taught to thump out 8th note roots over a two chord pattern, than to understand the intricacies of modal jazz. What I want to make clear, is that I'm definitely not saying that means one type of music is "better" than another, just that it's more involved or complex. Hell, my cell phone is a more complex instrument than my eyeglasses, but...oh what's my point?
The point is, I do really think that a lot of people "name drop" in regards to jazz, and saying they've played jazz, been influenced by jazz, or listen to jazz. Someone here said it best, there is a very clear difference between a jazz musician and someone who plays jazz. A jazz musician is someone who really lives and breathes the music, they understand the subtleties, history, and concepts behind the genre. Obviously all music has history, but there are not really many styles that can claim as rich and important a history as jazz. Jazz's history is not just that of music, but of celebration, oppression, redemption, acceptance, and more obstacles than I could imagine.
I don't know about one specific individual, but personally, I also tend to take comments regarding one's influence by jazz with many grains of salt.
