Originally posted by Angus
Jaco must not be as good as Jaco, because he didn't write it.
Good catch. I was gonna say that, but ya beat me to it.
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Jaco
- Thread starter Jeff Haley
- Start date
Good catch. I was gonna say that, but ya beat me to it.
I guess that was a dig at me...an 'unreal' TOP fan.
FWIW, I didn't listen to TOP back then for their ballads!
Not that I listened to many ballads back then, period!
Well, who did compose "Donna Lee"?
The changes belong to a Standard called "Indiana".
Both Bird & Miles claim the melody as their own...Jaco's arrangement IS Jaco's solo, right?
Yep. Just check out "Willing to Learn" from the "Urban Renewal" album, which I just realized is probably my favorite TOP project. It's loaded from bottom to top. If you want to buy one TOP album that has everything, this is it.
Only So Much Oil in the Ground - uh huh
Come Back, Baby
It's Not the Crime -Emilio on lead vocals
I Won't Leave Unless You Want Me To -another nice ballad
Maybe It'll Rub Off - one of the tightest TOP grooves ever
(To Say the Least) You're the Most
Willing to Learn -the art of the tight ballad.
Give Me the Proof -similar to " 'rub off"
It Can Never Be the Same
I Believe in Myself
Walkin' up Hip Street -Chester!
Back in the day the seamingly effortless interplay between every facet of this band was without peer IMO. It really didn't get any better than the lineup that Lenny Williams fronted, while Lenny Pickett (of SNL), Chester Thompson and Dave Garibaldi were still in the band.
Jim, lots of TOP fans weren't really into the ballads... it just means they weren't into the ballads
. I got into TOP before I played bass, as a trumpeter, so the horn arrangements just killed me as a teen. Doc's baritone hits were too sweet
"OK", I'm a dope.
I finally got around to re-visiting Tower Of Power, the album w/ "What Is Hip"...
Caramba, it's a S-O-U-L bonanza!
The slower tunes kick ass...very Motown-ish/Stax-ish. Very similar to what AWB ended up doing a couple years after the release of this record.
My cd collection is not in order(75% is alphabeticalized; the rest are strewn everywhere)...anyway, I'm diggin' around &
...maybe it's possible, BUT, the TOP album is the only one I have on cd?!
I have Back To Oakland & Urban Renewal on LP. Tomorrow, I'm pickin' up East Bay Grease & Bump City...after one more look around Catacombs der Keller, that is.
The Seawind horns were another tight, oft-hired for side gigs kinda section.
I finally got around to re-visiting Tower Of Power, the album w/ "What Is Hip"...
Caramba, it's a S-O-U-L bonanza!
The slower tunes kick ass...very Motown-ish/Stax-ish. Very similar to what AWB ended up doing a couple years after the release of this record.
My cd collection is not in order(75% is alphabeticalized; the rest are strewn everywhere)...anyway, I'm diggin' around &
...maybe it's possible, BUT, the TOP album is the only one I have on cd?!
I have Back To Oakland & Urban Renewal on LP. Tomorrow, I'm pickin' up East Bay Grease & Bump City...after one more look around Catacombs der Keller, that is.
The Seawind horns were another tight, oft-hired for side gigs kinda section.
Yeah, The Seawind Horns had Jerry Hey, Bill Reichenbach, Larry Williams, & others(I'm drawing a blank...you'd think I would at least remember the chick singer's name!).
Well, to my surprise, the local store had the 4 TOP discs in-stock; I plunked down $35 & picked up all 4.
Their debut, East Bay Grease, is pretty much one big ol' "James Brown groove" throughout(last tune is the change of pace). Anyway, this disc is from 1970...it's butt-kicking, to say the least.
Seriously, it has been about 20 years since I really sat down & listened to TOP. My bad! I really need to re-visit all this stuff!
All these early Rocco/Garibaldi TOP cds are highly recommended!
Well, to my surprise, the local store had the 4 TOP discs in-stock; I plunked down $35 & picked up all 4.
Their debut, East Bay Grease, is pretty much one big ol' "James Brown groove" throughout(last tune is the change of pace). Anyway, this disc is from 1970...it's butt-kicking, to say the least.
Seriously, it has been about 20 years since I really sat down & listened to TOP. My bad! I really need to re-visit all this stuff!
All these early Rocco/Garibaldi TOP cds are highly recommended!
TOP? now this is interesting, way back in the lost days of my youth when I still purchased Bass Player magazine (is that still around?) I was constantly reading about this Rocco Prestia guy who played with TOP so, eventually I managed to track down a live TOP album from (from 1976), and I must admit it didnt do a thing for me granted the horn section kicked ass but the keyboard player (Chester Thompson?) irritated the hell out of me..why in Gods name would a keyboardist play rumbling bass pedals when theres a goddamn bassist on the stage with him???? muddy as hell.
Anyway I went and bought Urban Renewal, in the slot, Bump city and Tower of Power and I still dont see what the fuss is, granted Prestia's a good player but personally I prefer Bernard Edwards' groove and I certainly dont see whats so difficult about his basslines (what is hip?? learnt it on one listen, your still a young man?..personally I think he overplays) all in all I just dont get it, am I missing something somewhere?..I mean for that pumping groove thing I always found it harder to lock in with the chorus on Pastorious's come on come over or Stanley Clarkes Hot Fun than anything Prestia did.
I'm not putting anything down as I firmly believe that one can get something out of anyones music (not only bass) I'm just genuinely intrigued at the "Funk God" label that Prestia has.
Any thoughts?
Anyway I went and bought Urban Renewal, in the slot, Bump city and Tower of Power and I still dont see what the fuss is, granted Prestia's a good player but personally I prefer Bernard Edwards' groove and I certainly dont see whats so difficult about his basslines (what is hip?? learnt it on one listen, your still a young man?..personally I think he overplays) all in all I just dont get it, am I missing something somewhere?..I mean for that pumping groove thing I always found it harder to lock in with the chorus on Pastorious's come on come over or Stanley Clarkes Hot Fun than anything Prestia did.
I'm not putting anything down as I firmly believe that one can get something out of anyones music (not only bass) I'm just genuinely intrigued at the "Funk God" label that Prestia has.
Any thoughts?
I like Bernard(RIP)Edwards a lot; that said, Chic was really about being a 'dance/Disco band...not that there's anything wrong with that!
Anyway, in such a band(& I own 3 Chic records), the interplay/interaction really suffers, especially with regards to what's goin' between the bassist & drummer. The 'danceability' factor can't be compromised...been there, done that!
IMO, TOP's rhythm section(& I agree with ya about those bass pedals; any keyboardist with a heavy LEFT hand annoys me)...took the groove somewhere. Garibaldi & fellow Bay Area drummer Mike Clark(of The Headhunters) are masters of that displaced Funk/R&B school. If Rocco & Paul Jackson didn't(or couldn't)play as they did, it woulda been a shame...so, IMO, that busy, 1/16th muted staccato Funk hadda be there from the bass chair.
So, I don't see it as 'overplaying'; for this sorta style, 'more IS more'!
Are Rocco's lines 'difficult'? Harmony-wise, probably not(here's where Jaco & Gary Willis take it a little 'deeper'). The sheer stamina to effectively pull off Rocco's style would be difficult(for me...I do like to take a breath every so often. For that reason, "Come On, Come Over" would be easier for me than "What Is Hip"?).
And as I mentioned just a couple posts ago, it's been awhile since I sat down with TOP's stuff; I was totally blown away by the Soul-type tunes.
Hasta-
Anyway, in such a band(& I own 3 Chic records), the interplay/interaction really suffers, especially with regards to what's goin' between the bassist & drummer. The 'danceability' factor can't be compromised...been there, done that!
IMO, TOP's rhythm section(& I agree with ya about those bass pedals; any keyboardist with a heavy LEFT hand annoys me)
...took the groove somewhere. Garibaldi & fellow Bay Area drummer Mike Clark(of The Headhunters) are masters of that displaced Funk/R&B school. If Rocco & Paul Jackson didn't(or couldn't)play as they did, it woulda been a shame...so, IMO, that busy, 1/16th muted staccato Funk hadda be there from the bass chair.So, I don't see it as 'overplaying'; for this sorta style, 'more IS more'!
Are Rocco's lines 'difficult'? Harmony-wise, probably not(here's where Jaco & Gary Willis take it a little 'deeper'). The sheer stamina to effectively pull off Rocco's style would be difficult(for me...I do like to take a breath every so often. For that reason, "Come On, Come Over" would be easier for me than "What Is Hip"?).
And as I mentioned just a couple posts ago, it's been awhile since I sat down with TOP's stuff; I was totally blown away by the Soul-type tunes.
Hasta-
Originally posted by JimK
Well, who did compose "Donna Lee"?
The changes belong to a Standard called "Indiana".
Both Bird & Miles claim the melody as their own...Jaco's arrangement IS Jaco's solo, right?
That's right - I mentioned in another thread about how a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding Donna Lee and that what Jaco did was a fairly standard reading of a standard Jazz tune. Head - couple of choruses solo and head out - hardly an arrangement and what most small Jazz groups would do without thinking about it!
Jaco was just the first person to do this on bass guitar alone, but it's the sort of thing most horn players could do in their sleep!
Now - "3 Views of a Secret" or "Dry Cleaner from des Moines" - that's an arrangment!
Originally posted by JimK
IMO, TOP's rhythm section(& I agree with ya about those bass pedals; any keyboardist with a heavy LEFT hand annoys me)
So, I don't see it as 'overplaying'; for this sorta style, 'more IS more'!
Good point, although I dont think Roccos style of playing would work on its own without say Dave Garibaldis stupendous kick drum work (most notable on "Down to the nightclub"..its Garibaldis drumming which powers the groove on that one). If you ever try and play a "Rocco groove" with a "standard" drummer it just dosent work because that driving pulse just isnt there to support it.
(cant believe I'm actually praising drummers
[The fact that someone his age, back then, from the beginning could even keep up with Dave Garibaldi
Dave, perhaps my favorite drummer. Ungodly.
Dave, perhaps my favorite drummer. Ungodly.
I'm wading in late so be patient.
[the "noodly" jazz thing just never did it for me.
The noodly things? (Pedro shaking his head in amazement.)
[... Did he really really make a huge difference to any other bass players?
Yes I think he did.
[thats pretty speculative, because there people like John Patitucci, and Rocco Prestoria, who can play exactly like Jaco, and possibly play a wider range of styles.
I love Rocco but I have never heard him play just like Jaco. John is a virtuoso and no doubt can play many styles but playing a style and inventing one are two different things. There are many players now that can play Jaco's music. But playing it and creating it are two different things.
[From what I understand Rocco was one of Jaco's biggest influances, thats why I used his name. But I totally understand your point of view on this.
I've never heard Jaco mention Rocco. I've heard him list Jerry Jemmott, Tommy Cogbill, Jamerson, McCartney, Mingus but never Rocco. Don't get me wrong, though I love Rocco's playing.
[As far as Jaco's music, I dunno, "3 Views Of A Secret"...beats me how anyone wouldn't dig that composition.
I love Jaco's compositions. If somebody else doesn't that's fine by me.
["Crisis"...my initial reaction? What the F*** is this!?
LMAO! Me too. But that was one successful composition. It definitely communicated Jaco's state of mind about as well as it could be.
[How many ballads has Rocco ever played?
Unfortunately too many. I love TOP but their ballads are well pretty schmatlzie IMO.
[i can always tell the real t.o.p. fans because they dont skip past the ballads.
Hmmm. I guess I don't qualify as a fan because although I've seen them live twice and have several of their CD's. I love everything they do except their ballads which I consider painful.
[granted Prestia's a good player but personally I prefer Bernard Edwards' groove
I love Bernard. I've got no beef with that.
[and I certainly dont see whats so difficult about his basslines (what is hip?? learnt it on one listen, your still a young man?.personally I think he overplays)
If you don't like it you don't like it. Personally I love Rocco but I wouldn't elevate him to the level of Jerry Jemmott or Jaco or Jamerson. He's excellent at what he does and he's best witnessed live. (I find him way, way down in the mix on the CD's ~ even the live ones. With his mutting it makes his playing difficult to appreciate.) The combination of Rocco and Girabaldi is the real attraction of TOP, IMO.
[the "noodly" jazz thing just never did it for me.
The noodly things? (Pedro shaking his head in amazement.)
[... Did he really really make a huge difference to any other bass players?
Yes I think he did.
[thats pretty speculative, because there people like John Patitucci, and Rocco Prestoria, who can play exactly like Jaco, and possibly play a wider range of styles.
I love Rocco but I have never heard him play just like Jaco. John is a virtuoso and no doubt can play many styles but playing a style and inventing one are two different things. There are many players now that can play Jaco's music. But playing it and creating it are two different things.
[From what I understand Rocco was one of Jaco's biggest influances, thats why I used his name. But I totally understand your point of view on this.
I've never heard Jaco mention Rocco. I've heard him list Jerry Jemmott, Tommy Cogbill, Jamerson, McCartney, Mingus but never Rocco. Don't get me wrong, though I love Rocco's playing.
[As far as Jaco's music, I dunno, "3 Views Of A Secret"...beats me how anyone wouldn't dig that composition.
I love Jaco's compositions. If somebody else doesn't that's fine by me.
["Crisis"...my initial reaction? What the F*** is this!?
LMAO! Me too. But that was one successful composition. It definitely communicated Jaco's state of mind about as well as it could be.
[How many ballads has Rocco ever played?
Unfortunately too many. I love TOP but their ballads are well pretty schmatlzie IMO.
[i can always tell the real t.o.p. fans because they dont skip past the ballads.
Hmmm. I guess I don't qualify as a fan because although I've seen them live twice and have several of their CD's. I love everything they do except their ballads which I consider painful.
[granted Prestia's a good player but personally I prefer Bernard Edwards' groove
I love Bernard. I've got no beef with that.
[and I certainly dont see whats so difficult about his basslines (what is hip?? learnt it on one listen, your still a young man?.personally I think he overplays)
If you don't like it you don't like it. Personally I love Rocco but I wouldn't elevate him to the level of Jerry Jemmott or Jaco or Jamerson. He's excellent at what he does and he's best witnessed live. (I find him way, way down in the mix on the CD's ~ even the live ones. With his mutting it makes his playing difficult to appreciate.) The combination of Rocco and Girabaldi is the real attraction of TOP, IMO.
Pedro, que pasa? No patience required as your input is always welcome.
I thought I've read about a Jaco & Rocco connection; perhaps not, though, I'm a little surprised...some of those tunes on Tower Of Power are very Jaco-esque(& TOP pre-dated Jaco's debut record by 5 years or so).
I don't have Milkowski's bio sitting here...the book
does mention a Florida bassist that played in a 'funky, muted vibe that knocked Jaco out'; perhaps that guy dug Rocco or something like that.
Maybe I'm thinking of Jeff Berlin; he seems to give Rocco a lotta props.
...and the slower tunes on that album kick(IMO). Very similiar to what The Average White Band did a few years later(if you like their 'slower/mellower' stuff).
My only problem when some say "I don't like so & so" is-
Maybe they haven't heard enough to make such a blanket statement.
Hasta.
I thought I've read about a Jaco & Rocco connection; perhaps not, though, I'm a little surprised...some of those tunes on Tower Of Power are very Jaco-esque(& TOP pre-dated Jaco's debut record by 5 years or so).
I don't have Milkowski's bio sitting here...the book
does mention a Florida bassist that played in a 'funky, muted vibe that knocked Jaco out'; perhaps that guy dug Rocco or something like that.
Maybe I'm thinking of Jeff Berlin; he seems to give Rocco a lotta props.
...and the slower tunes on that album kick(IMO). Very similiar to what The Average White Band did a few years later(if you like their 'slower/mellower' stuff).
My only problem when some say "I don't like so & so" is-
Maybe they haven't heard enough to make such a blanket statement.
Hasta.
how much of a style did jaco really create? im a big jaco fan myself, but i dont really put him above a rocco,paul jackson,patitucci or whatever. ive heard patitucci play legit straight ahead,funk,cuban,samba etc. jaco,to me, kind of seemed like he forced his basslines into different styles of music, whether they fit or not depends on the listener.
i listened to the boot of jaco playing with herbie in the 70's and found it to be aweful. i didnt think his playing or tone fit into that context at all. give me paul jackson anyday.
anyway there were guys like alphonso johnson who is a ripping soloist in his own right(check out the cobham/duke band in montreux video from 76 to see what i mean) that were on the scene before jaco. hell, my favorite weather report album is black market and its almost all alphonso except for 2 tracks.
i listened to the boot of jaco playing with herbie in the 70's and found it to be aweful. i didnt think his playing or tone fit into that context at all. give me paul jackson anyday.
anyway there were guys like alphonso johnson who is a ripping soloist in his own right(check out the cobham/duke band in montreux video from 76 to see what i mean) that were on the scene before jaco. hell, my favorite weather report album is black market and its almost all alphonso except for 2 tracks.
I'm pretty sure Jaco mentioned Rocco, can't put my finger on where. Then again...see below.
I love Rocco's early work with TOP. For anyone who has an issue with their ballads, check out the ballads during the Lenny Williams era. Even without Lenny on vocals, is "You're Still a Young Man" schmalttzy? I guess it could be.
Bernard did something that I still marvel at. With all the thousands of people banging away at this instrument, he came up with an original sound. So did Rocco.
Some of my favorite WR stuff is still from the Alphonso Johnson/ Miroslav Vitous years. That stuff was so sweet... and different, at the time.
Mike Clarke? He's on my short list of guys I'd like to struggle to keep up with
I love Rocco's early work with TOP. For anyone who has an issue with their ballads, check out the ballads during the Lenny Williams era. Even without Lenny on vocals, is "You're Still a Young Man" schmalttzy? I guess it could be.
Bernard did something that I still marvel at. With all the thousands of people banging away at this instrument, he came up with an original sound. So did Rocco.
Some of my favorite WR stuff is still from the Alphonso Johnson/ Miroslav Vitous years. That stuff was so sweet... and different, at the time.
Mike Clarke? He's on my short list of guys I'd like to struggle to keep up with
as much as i love mike clarke i was kind of dissapointed with his last solo album.
there must of been something in the water in the bay area to have two of the baddest bass/drum combos come out of there.
as for miroslav, i love the solo he takes on the live portion of mysterious traveller playing arco and through a wah.
the victor bailey/omar hakim era of weather report is pretty cool too. i remember being a little kid and going into the record store with my dad and picking up sportin' life and this is this when they first came out.
there must of been something in the water in the bay area to have two of the baddest bass/drum combos come out of there.
as for miroslav, i love the solo he takes on the live portion of mysterious traveller playing arco and through a wah.
the victor bailey/omar hakim era of weather report is pretty cool too. i remember being a little kid and going into the record store with my dad and picking up sportin' life and this is this when they first came out.
[Pedro, que pasa? No patience required as your input is always welcome.
Thanks JimK. I haven't been here for a while. Cool logo. What's up with the Flyers this year? Anyhoo, its certainly possible that Jaco had an opinion about Rocco and I do see the similarities but 'I' just don't recall him expressing an opinion. Let me know if you find a quote.
[jaco,to me, kind of seemed like he forced his basslines into different styles of music, whether they fit or not depends on the listener.
Every player has their own characteristics that they bring to whatever style of music they play and Jaco was no exception. I don't think he forced his bass lines but his playing was uniquely his ~ and stood out. And so I can see your point to an extent. I think that there are consummate sidemen who blend in perfectly and then there are those very special individuals like Jaco who stand out no matter what. Each of us will determine whether or not that is a flaw. As for me, I wish I could be one fraction as flawed. : (
[i listened to the boot of jaco playing with herbie in the 70's and found it to be aweful. i didnt think his playing or tone fit into that context at all. give me paul jackson anyday.
I never heard the boot but Jaco's playing with Herbie on his debut album was sensational and having seen Jaco live I'll take him over anybody else.
[anyway there were guys like alphonso johnson who is a ripping soloist in his own right (check out the cobham/duke band in montreux video from 76 to see what i mean) that were on the scene before jaco.
No need to defend Alphonso. He's a great bass player.
[my favorite weather report album is black market and its almost all alphonso except for 2 tracks.
Telling that two of my three favorite tracks are the ones with Jaco.
[IMO Dave Garibaldi is the king of funk/groove orientation on drums
I don't know that I'd call it 'groove' ~ Dave is something else. Something beyond.
[his instructional video is by far the best one ive ever seen for drummers.
I'm not a drummer and I wouldn't mind having it myself.
[For anyone who has an issue with their ballads, check out the ballads during the Lenny Williams era. Even without Lenny on vocals, is "You're Still a Young Man" schmalttzy? I guess it could be.
Definitely schmaltie.
Thanks JimK. I haven't been here for a while. Cool logo. What's up with the Flyers this year? Anyhoo, its certainly possible that Jaco had an opinion about Rocco and I do see the similarities but 'I' just don't recall him expressing an opinion. Let me know if you find a quote.
[jaco,to me, kind of seemed like he forced his basslines into different styles of music, whether they fit or not depends on the listener.
Every player has their own characteristics that they bring to whatever style of music they play and Jaco was no exception. I don't think he forced his bass lines but his playing was uniquely his ~ and stood out. And so I can see your point to an extent. I think that there are consummate sidemen who blend in perfectly and then there are those very special individuals like Jaco who stand out no matter what. Each of us will determine whether or not that is a flaw. As for me, I wish I could be one fraction as flawed. : (
[i listened to the boot of jaco playing with herbie in the 70's and found it to be aweful. i didnt think his playing or tone fit into that context at all. give me paul jackson anyday.
I never heard the boot but Jaco's playing with Herbie on his debut album was sensational and having seen Jaco live I'll take him over anybody else.
[anyway there were guys like alphonso johnson who is a ripping soloist in his own right (check out the cobham/duke band in montreux video from 76 to see what i mean) that were on the scene before jaco.
No need to defend Alphonso. He's a great bass player.
[my favorite weather report album is black market and its almost all alphonso except for 2 tracks.
Telling that two of my three favorite tracks are the ones with Jaco.
[IMO Dave Garibaldi is the king of funk/groove orientation on drums
I don't know that I'd call it 'groove' ~ Dave is something else. Something beyond.
[his instructional video is by far the best one ive ever seen for drummers.
I'm not a drummer and I wouldn't mind having it myself.
[For anyone who has an issue with their ballads, check out the ballads during the Lenny Williams era. Even without Lenny on vocals, is "You're Still a Young Man" schmalttzy? I guess it could be.
Definitely schmaltie.
Pedro-
First, the Flyers still suck(might make it as far as the 2nd round).
I agree with your Jaco-critique. One note, you know it's him. Same goes for Bird, Miles, 'Trane, Monk, etc. "Very special individuals"...
BTW-
You Miroslav fans: the local store here has four copies of his '70s album, Infinite Search...nicely priced too($10).
Anyway, it's a Fusion classic(& I paid big import $$$ a few years back to get it).
If any store HERE has it, your's should, too!
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