mike pope and tom kennedy double though and if a tune is "legit" jazz, i usually hear them on db. those guys know what fits a given situation. with aj, the latin stuff he does with michel camillo isnt really a genre where db is quite as crucial.
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Jazz and the Bass Guitar
- Thread starter HaVIC5
- Start date
mike pope and tom kennedy double though and if a tune is "legit" jazz, i usually hear them on db. those guys know what fits a given situation. with aj, the latin stuff he does with michel camillo isnt really a genre where db is quite as crucial.
They do and Dave Carpenter and John Patitucci both fall into that category as well. I wonder how much of their decision to play either DB or electric is up to them and not the bandleader. Not much, I would guess. But that's speculation.
Is there a certain sound/feel/nostalgia that DB brings to a tune? Sure but that's not to say that electric can't hold its own.
i guess im thinking more about jazz or any given genre of music as an art form rather than the art form of taking whatever wack gigs you can get to pay your bills. if we're talking about a restaurant or hotel lounge gig, sure, you show up with anything. theres a guy around town here that plays trumpet with one hand and key bass with the other. thats about as sonically pleasing as the dude playing straight ahead on eb with the back pickup solo'd, playing too loud, and on top of the beat.
john plays db on his own albums if the tune calls for that. if you play the instrument with any real dedication, im sure its being done for more reasons than just appeasing a band leader.
I found it interesting that you included a picture of the one double bass player who seems to have a great relationship with both instruments and who is quite innovative and enjoyable to listen to on either, i.e., Avishai Cohen. He seems biased toward using the DB but doesn't seem limited by it in any way. His bass guitar playing is also very entertaining and innovative.
Nice upper range DB usage:
Both of these are from the same live show....As Is - Live at the Blue Note.
If you've not seen his "stuff", by all means have a look at the links! He is one of my main reasons for getting bit by the bass bug again after 40 years.
Nice upper range DB usage:
Both of these are from the same live show....As Is - Live at the Blue Note.
If you've not seen his "stuff", by all means have a look at the links! He is one of my main reasons for getting bit by the bass bug again after 40 years.
Agreed - if you put in the time to play db and play it extremely well like those dudes, you probably prefer db in the long run.
I suppose the "straight ahead" is the thing, to me that implies pre-fusion jazz which was done on upright, and has that classic acoustic sound that is difficult to emulate entirely on an electric bass. The more modern neo-Wynton-whatever jazz was sort of a return to the basic swing and sound of of pre-fusion, pre-smooth jazz, and is what some people consider "real" jazz...or so I read. And I think it is important for some people to keep those traditions, and those sounds alive. A double bass no doubt looks and sounds the most authentic for that style, and is a fine instrument.
On the other hand, my favorite "jazz" bassists are Marcus Miller and Jaco, and they both play(ed) a fender "jazz" bass, which in both cases sound great. Jaco's playing with joni, or on kuru/speak like a child, give the electric bass a voice on par with any upright, perhaps not the same, but I like it as good or (gasp) better. And there is nothing un-jazz like about Marcus, though I understand that is not straight ahead, his So What is funk flavored at heart though it starts with a palm-muted nod to Paul Chambers..
The last couple of years I've been listening to the straight ahead classic jazz, which I like a lot, although the bass playing is not really the highlights for me, i like the compositions, and seeing how music has evolved, as well as great performances. Stanley Clarke had always been my favorite upright player, and it took me these two years to find other double bass players in the overall framework of jazz, so now being influenced by say Ray Browns performance with Oscar Peterson on Baggs Groove, I hear that sound, and it would be cool to emulate that. And all the palm muting, fretless tinkering in the world probably won't get me there. But I'll probably just stick to my fenders.....
Or try the Rob Allen....
Or pay a hefty sum for an upright that will take me 2 more years to learn and probably aggravate my tendonitis...
On the other hand, my favorite "jazz" bassists are Marcus Miller and Jaco, and they both play(ed) a fender "jazz" bass, which in both cases sound great. Jaco's playing with joni, or on kuru/speak like a child, give the electric bass a voice on par with any upright, perhaps not the same, but I like it as good or (gasp) better. And there is nothing un-jazz like about Marcus, though I understand that is not straight ahead, his So What is funk flavored at heart though it starts with a palm-muted nod to Paul Chambers..
The last couple of years I've been listening to the straight ahead classic jazz, which I like a lot, although the bass playing is not really the highlights for me, i like the compositions, and seeing how music has evolved, as well as great performances. Stanley Clarke had always been my favorite upright player, and it took me these two years to find other double bass players in the overall framework of jazz, so now being influenced by say Ray Browns performance with Oscar Peterson on Baggs Groove, I hear that sound, and it would be cool to emulate that. And all the palm muting, fretless tinkering in the world probably won't get me there. But I'll probably just stick to my fenders.....
Or try the Rob Allen....
Or pay a hefty sum for an upright that will take me 2 more years to learn and probably aggravate my tendonitis...
Synth anything is only ever in tune. That's a problem. How about a nice minor third held over a major chord that resolves by sliding up that semitone. Similarly with a flatted 5th. Nothing will ever come close to real players (of course real skilled players)
Buddy Rich once told Dave Carpenter, "The rhythm comes from the bass, and the ride cymbal is an embellishment of that rhythm."
In Adam's article he wrote, "Upright bass is known for it’s unique ability to be felt and not necessarily heard that clearly. If you are listening to a swing groove with a good double bass player and drummer that have really locked in to one another, there is a very physical sensation..."
Maybe this whole topic boils down to the db being able to physically drive the music forward to a better degree than the electric can.
As I write this, I'm listening to PC playing on the 'Milestones' album and there is definitely something to the physical aspect of the tone of a db combined with an astute bassist.
In Adam's article he wrote, "Upright bass is known for it’s unique ability to be felt and not necessarily heard that clearly. If you are listening to a swing groove with a good double bass player and drummer that have really locked in to one another, there is a very physical sensation..."
Maybe this whole topic boils down to the db being able to physically drive the music forward to a better degree than the electric can.
As I write this, I'm listening to PC playing on the 'Milestones' album and there is definitely something to the physical aspect of the tone of a db combined with an astute bassist.
Just another thought on this.
AJ began honing his use of the palm mute to emulate the tone of an Ampeg Baby Bass in latin music. The Baby Bass is huge in that genre and Anthony comes really close on his electric.
Through technique, Anthony was able to bridge the gap and bring the separate idioms, the db and electric, closer together.
I luckily never had to really do those types of gigs. I usually don't like to use extreme cases as examples (either good or bad). I never considered the vast majority of gigs I've done over the past 35 years or so anything like what you describe above.
If you've had to compromise like that and play those types of gigs, that's a drag. I guess I was lucky. Of course, today is a different situation,where there is so little quality work out there that many really good players are living a sad compromise at this point. I'm lucky enough to not have to do that even these days, as I have a pretty good day gig at this point.
I would also never base my opinion of any music or player on the type of instrument he/she plays. Really doesn't matter to me. If the player can play, and is playing his heart out, I could care less if he/she is playing a grand piano or electronic keyboard, a DB or EB, etc. I just have never limited my evaluations (and enjoyment) that way. Of course, IMO there.
Definitely. Avishai is a unique talent. I really dig how he works in middle-eastern rhythms into his music. Oz Noy does this to a degree, as well.
When I was growing up in the Detroit area in the 70's and 80's, it seemed like many if not most jazz groups had electric bass. A lot of factors might have contributed: There were no string programs in the public schools due to budget cuts, so you got a bassist by finding someone who played trombone (or cello in my case thanks to private lessons) and handing them a Fender bass. Classical training (i.e., sight-reading) and a marketable instrument were a pretty hot combination.
At the same time, fusion was still pretty new, and played into the popularity of other musical styles as well. A lot of jazz groups went through a disco phase. And people were interested in louder music.
I couldn't think of a reason to play jazz on upright bass, so I played jazz on electric while taking classical lessons on cello and then later upright bass. What eventually happened is that I got hooked on upright, and it's become my main instrument.
Today, it seems that there's been a resurgence of the upright bass. Meanwhile, the music business has gone downhill, and the jazz scene has shrunk to the point where most of the work is being done by a pretty small handful of players. Truth be told, a lot of traditional and contemporary musical forms are kept alive solely by players and fans who are motivated by their love of the music.
I doubt that very many bassists take up the upright bass in response to demand from bandleaders who think that upright has the right look on stage. If you think about it, that's impossible, because upright takes years to learn. Rather, the people who play upright on stage, for the most part, are those who have propelled themselves into that position by following a passion for upright, and for jazz, bordering on insanity. That's what you're competing with. Do you love traditional jazz that much?
At the same time, it may be that electric has gone downhill in jazz, because fusion has gone from being the new kid on the block, to one of many mature genres with its own traditions (such as smooth jazz). Fusion isn't all that much younger than some developments in traditional jazz, and the upright bass as a jazz instrument isn't all that much older than electric. I'm not saying that fusion is dead, but traditional jazz isn't dead either.
At the same time, fusion was still pretty new, and played into the popularity of other musical styles as well. A lot of jazz groups went through a disco phase. And people were interested in louder music.
I couldn't think of a reason to play jazz on upright bass, so I played jazz on electric while taking classical lessons on cello and then later upright bass. What eventually happened is that I got hooked on upright, and it's become my main instrument.
Today, it seems that there's been a resurgence of the upright bass. Meanwhile, the music business has gone downhill, and the jazz scene has shrunk to the point where most of the work is being done by a pretty small handful of players. Truth be told, a lot of traditional and contemporary musical forms are kept alive solely by players and fans who are motivated by their love of the music.
I doubt that very many bassists take up the upright bass in response to demand from bandleaders who think that upright has the right look on stage. If you think about it, that's impossible, because upright takes years to learn. Rather, the people who play upright on stage, for the most part, are those who have propelled themselves into that position by following a passion for upright, and for jazz, bordering on insanity. That's what you're competing with. Do you love traditional jazz that much?
At the same time, it may be that electric has gone downhill in jazz, because fusion has gone from being the new kid on the block, to one of many mature genres with its own traditions (such as smooth jazz). Fusion isn't all that much younger than some developments in traditional jazz, and the upright bass as a jazz instrument isn't all that much older than electric. I'm not saying that fusion is dead, but traditional jazz isn't dead either.
if charlie hadyn couldn't make the gig,and steve swallow subbed,i'd still go......i've heard lots of both,and while i love the sound a db makes,an eb works if the guy playin' it has the goods....i used to go to saturday afternoon jams here and the house bass looked like a cheapo guitar that had been restrung w/ bass strings.....wasn't ideal i guess but they still made music with it....
Nice article and examples. This is one of those ongoing debates we will be a part of as bass players. I was a long time doubler practicing, learning & enjoying both instruments. At one time I was more successful as an acoustic player but have switched exclusively to the electric because it is no longer physically possible for me to play the upright. But my experience, touch and sensibilities inform the way I play in a jazz setting. In a small group my ability to swing and groove and then play a lyrical melody or solo and back again are something i could never accomplish on upright. But like you I am more of a fusion player, enjoying being able to pull in other influences and not staying totally trad.
Thanks for asking Adam. The music does not need anyone's permission to come out & be heard. I am ambivalent about the need to "canonize" jazz using it's 1st hundred years of music as a template. While few Symphonies are written now, it was the form of choice for 200+ years. Some say nothing new can be added to the Symphonic library, too. Perhaps that's so. I don't know enough to form an opinion. That is to say, I know that I don't know. Which means I am not totally ignorant which would be, not knowing you don't know.
I do think there is more Jazz to be played & I find the sound of new instrument voices adds to the interest. The mainstay of Jazz, the Saxophone, never really found it's place in "Classical' orchestras, did it? The easier to play BG allows some players to phrase like a reed or horn player, making new sounds, creating new possibilities. It allows the 'embouchure deprived' to join in the fun.
All epic quests for "tone" aside, please, NHOP's bass with steel strings & wound microphonic pickups sounds at least as 'electric' as an EUB to me. His playing is phrased like a URB & NHOP played so well, still it doesn't sound like a BG! All rants about string scale aside, please, I don't think a 34" string can ever vibrate the same as a 42" string & managing to play instruments with such different physical characteristics, has to result in differences in each instrument's voice. That said, I can't always hear the difference between EUB & BG in some Latin (Jazz) music.
I know from personal experience, a slightly Staccato groove on BG will kill the swing in a hurry because it is clearly heard. The URB 'thump' has often dropped below audible when it is cut short. I think you have to work harder to kill the swing with a URB. I've invested a few hours giving full value to each note. I play BG so, I'm vulnerable. I choose BG because I can own a premium instrument for the cost of a very mediocre URB + Bow, I started late in life, life is short & I have a budget. If I were given an Upright & funds for lessons, I would pick it up in a heartbeat!
Personally, I pay attention to what is played when I'm listening to people who can play on a professional level. I try to bring that to my music, regardless of the shape of the instrument. I think of it as ear training.
Last but not least, add Christian McBride to the list of Bass Players who know what to do with either URB or BG.
Sounds like we grew up in different cities together
+1
Did you grow up in Detroit proper, or a suburb? I grew up in Trenton.
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