Jazz and the Bass Guitar

[thepontif]

for me, the feeling of the db resonating in my hands is incomparable. The way the notes bloom and just the general envelope of the sound is so much more of an organic experience than eb. Although I've got the strings pretty jacked up on my electric which feels great. I'm starting to realize that string height doesn't appear to have any effect on how fast I can get around...once I got used to it at least. The fact that there is so much more acoustic sound with higher strings played harder makes playing eb much more pleasurable for me. Same thing with db for me. I lower my strings and then beat the bass to get sound it can't really make. Higher strings have more resistance, but the energy I use to over come it all goes into sound production.

 

[KJung]

Did you grow up in Detroit proper, or a suburb? I grew up in Trenton.

No, I grew up and played full time in St. Louis (I live in the Grosse Pointe area of Detroit now), but had the exact same experiences as you did. The first post I put up in this thread is almost identical 'word for word' to your post regarding the massive amount of work for electric bass in a jazz setting, and the massive amount of gigs that required both standards, straight ahead bop, light fusion, and pop jazz during that period (plus, the dance gigs were funk... what a great time to be playing for a living!). It was a WONDERFUL decade (let's call it mid 70's to mid 80's) for gigging if you were an EB player who could read, play various styles, and respected the vibe of straight ahead playing (i.e., could swing a bit). For almost that entire decade, I was playing around 340 gigs a year, plus or minus a few (i.e., six night steady in various restaurants and/or hotels, and then union Green Sheet gigs during the day, and a jazz brunch on Sunday).

I agree that now, as more traditional straight ahead playing has become kind of a niche of a niche, things have gotten more closed minded, and a certain look and tone seems to be required. However, that being said, the DB is making strides in more current, relevant music also. Amazing how many DB's you now see on the music video channels in the Alternative sort of thing.

'And the horses, they go up and down, and the music, it goes round and round' or whatever that Joni lyric is.... amazing that 'what is old is new again', over and over again.

 

[shwashwa]

ahhh, i see. you're better off then

Trenton MI

 

[mstott25]

I never limit a whole class of music to a specific instrument. If you can swing, you can swing There are MANY bassists who have success playing relatively straight ahead gigs on electric (that describes many of my gigs in the 80's).

IMO there. It seems the ones that have the most problem with it are DB players, and I guess I can understand that.

You will either get hired as an EB player for jazz gigs or not, and that will define if EB is 'OK for jazz or not'!

Now, I guess, with straight ahead jazz being a niche of a niche of a niche, there has been a resurgence of 'going back to the tradition', both in tone and look. I can respect that, but I rarely bother to go see it!

That might be the best summary I've read to date on this topic. I agree 100%, especially the parts about straight ahead being a niche genre and a lot of guys trying to cop the feel, sound and look of older times. Electric bass obviously doesn't imitate a doublebass as well as a doublebass

Playing electric bass with electric guitarists in straight-ahead is pretty much going to sound like poo, so don't even bother (IMO).

Man I don't know, that seems awfully shortsighted. I grew up on the West Coast and started getting into jazz in my late teens, early twenties. I used to watch Ron Eschete and Todd Johnson at Steamers every month, Dave Carpenter would mostly play DB but he had a regular gig with Andy Summers at the Baked Potato on EB that he played his 6 string bass on and they covered straight ahead; and Steve Swallow and John Scofield are one of the best guitar/bass combos today.

If EB/Guitar combos sound so bad in straight ahead settings, how can two electric guitarists still manage to swing like Mick Goodrick & Pat Methey, Bill Frisell & Dale Bruning? It's all about the musicians there IMO.

It ain't the instrument either way... DB or EB IMO. I recently heard Pat Martino at a local club, and he had an organist kicking pedals (and left hand). There is NOTHING I hate more than that muddy, undefined low end tone, but my god, it was SWINGING and it totally worked. It ain't the instrument, and a great player can overcome what some might see as negatives with any instrument in a 'non traditional' context for that particular instrument.

Pat Martino plays with Joey Defrancesco a lot (I'm sure you would have recognized Joey, huge dude sitting behind the organ!) and I LOVE his sound. I'm glad you mentioned this because now I understand why you didn't like Pino Palladino's tone the other day when you caught him with Herbie Hancock I love that full, muddy, swinging bass that you can feel. Joey plays the bass with his feet and he kills it, it's more like having two musicians interact with each other than one guy playing the organ.

My point being: Steve Swallow does it for me on electric, Joey Defrancesco does it for me on organ, Nat Reeves does it for me on doublebass - it's more about the musician than the instrument.

When Bela Fleck shows up to play, nobody starts having a discussion about whether or not the banjo looks right on stage or is still relevant to jazz, if you play at that level you will get the all of the respect and gigs you can handle regardless of your instrument.

 

[KJung]

Pat Martino plays with Joey Defrancesco a lot (I'm sure you would have recognized Joey, huge dude sitting behind the organ!) and I LOVE his sound. I'm glad you mentioned this because now I understand why you didn't like Pino Palladino's tone the other day when you caught him with Herbie Hancock I love that full, muddy, swinging bass that you can feel. Joey plays the bass with his feet and he kills it, it's more like having two musicians interact with each other than one guy playing the organ.

Pat was playing with Tony Monaco when I saw him. Very good organist, but had that 'muffy tone' on the low end.

Interestingly, I saw Joey the next week (great to have a high end Jazz club in the neighborhood), and THAT was a whole different thing all together. My gosh.. that guy is a freak of nature, and the bass tone was pretty darn killing... very articulate and round. I could live with that!

 

[stretchcat]

Joey plays the bass with his feet and he kills it, it's more like having two musicians interact with each other than one guy playing the organ.

Not to nitpick, but generally everything you hear from a jazz B3 player (Smith, DeFrancesco, etc...) when it comes to the deep swinging walking stuff is their left hand. The foot pedal is only used as an accent where appropriate. I've stood behind Joey while he was playing and watched him demonstrate this.

I'm totally with you on "it's what the player is bringing to the gig", BTW.

 

[KJung]

Not to nitpick, but generally everything you hear from a jazz B3 player (Smith, DeFrancesco, etc...) when it comes to the deep swinging walking stuff is their left hand. The foot pedal is only used as an accent where appropriate. I've stood behind Joey while he was playing and watched him demonstrate this.

I'm totally with you on "it's what the player is bringing to the gig", BTW.

+1 I'm surely not an expert on this, and was surprised that both of those guys played about 90% of the bass with their left hand. But man, Joey's bass tone and feel just KICKED. He was using some sort of 'digital B3' from Japan or something, and it just had a bite that Tony's 'real B3' just didn't have.

 

[mstott25]

Not to nitpick, but generally everything you hear from a jazz B3 player (Smith, DeFrancesco, etc...) when it comes to the deep swinging walking stuff is their left hand. The foot pedal is only used as an accent where appropriate. I've stood behind Joey while he was playing and watched him demonstrate this.

I'm totally with you on "it's what the player is bringing to the gig", BTW.

Yeah you're right! From Joey himself:
JD: A lot of people have this misconception that most of the bass comes from the left foot. With any of the real players, it’s left hand. The foot is when you hear it get really heavy, like real low notes, and then you tap the pedals for that thud, to give it punch. But the bass is the left hand. All the jazz organists could play a whole gig without the foot. A lot of the guys lie, too — Jimmy Smith always did! Don’t misunderstand me, we all can play foot, ‘cause it’s a natural thing. But it doesn’t sound correct. The right sound for that smooth bass is the left hand.

I think I was basing that on the one time I saw him play live and I was blown away watching him hold down the bassline and solo at the same time. It looked like he was doing it all with his feet but you are correct. I'll quit making a big deal out of that now

 

[KJung]

Yeah you're right! From Joey himself:
JD: A lot of people have this misconception that most of the bass comes from the left foot. With any of the real players, it’s left hand. The foot is when you hear it get really heavy, like real low notes, and then you tap the pedals for that thud, to give it punch. But the bass is the left hand. All the jazz organists could play a whole gig without the foot. A lot of the guys lie, too — Jimmy Smith always did! Don’t misunderstand me, we all can play foot, ‘cause it’s a natural thing. But it doesn’t sound correct. The right sound for that smooth bass is the left hand.

I think I was basing that on the one time I saw him play live and I was blown away watching him hold down the bassline and solo at the same time. It looked like he was doing it all with his feet but you are correct. I'll quit making a big deal out of that now

The key is, you are correct that Joey totally swings his **s off, and IMO has a tighter, more round, less thuddy tone than most of the 'B3' players I've heard. What a freak of nature that guy is!

 

[okcrum]

It's totally about how hard you swing, not what instrument you're playing. That's especially true with big bands.

 

[KJung]

It's totally about how hard you swing, not what instrument you're playing. That's especially true with big bands.

Big Bands... well, not much of that, but man, I totally appreciate an electric bass with a big band (like the old Buddy Rich band). A DB just gets swallowed up in all that stuff. An EB will just DRIVE a band, and stay tight and round so you can distinguish not only the pulse, but the notes.

Totally +1 on that.

 

[narud]

An EB will just DRIVE a band, and stay tight and round so you can distinguish not only the pulse, but the notes.

Totally +1 on that.

you just like electric bass too much i cant get into todd johnson playing jazz with an electric either. all that just doesnt sound like jazz to me.

 

[KJung]

you just like electric bass too much i cant get into todd johnson playing jazz with an electric either. all that just doesnt sound like jazz to me.

Totally understand that. And don't get me wrong, a DB and straight ahead playing is a wonderful thing. I can just see all sides of it. Hey, I hate flatwound strings on a PBass, but those guys seem to do OK, and a few of them can play

 

[mstott25]

you just like electric bass too much i cant get into todd johnson playing jazz with an electric either. all that just doesnt sound like jazz to me.

Ron Eschete would sound like he was playing jazz if you had a kid banging a trash can on stage next to him.

The way Todd and Ron interact and play off each other is far more enjoyable to watch than when I've seen Ron play with anybody else in LA. I don't think anybody would walk in and mistake it for a rock concert.

 

[Phil Smith]

BG is good in situations where the dynamic range of the group is small and the volume level is high. The big band I play with just plays loud in contrast to the community orchestra that I play with. With the big band or any band that requres you to amplify you lose a lot of the sound "quality" of the DB. Often people want the DB for the look and for the acoustic sound in a situation where they need the sonic footprint of a BG.

 

[narud]

Ron Eschete would sound like he was playing jazz if you had a kid banging a trash can on stage next to him.

The way Todd and Ron interact and play off each other is far more enjoyable to watch than when I've seen Ron play with anybody else in LA. I don't think anybody would walk in and mistake it for a rock concert.

totally agree about ron. for me, not the same with todd and bg. lets say james genus covered for rocco in tower of power but played upright. the band would still probably sound great. it wouldnt sound right though.

 

[thepontif]

If you have the right PU and good bass set up right, voume doesn't have to be any kind of issue. Although I think you have to be willing to accept a less than organic sound. I use a Wilson on my Pollman bass if I need to be loud and it wails. Sometimes you have to stuff foam in the f hole. But you can get seriously loud on a DB.


Same token, it eats up a lot of the beauty of what an acoustic bass is supposed to sound like, IMO. Sounds more electric at really high volumes.

 

[okcrum]

you just like electric bass too much i cant get into todd johnson playing jazz with an electric either. all that just doesnt sound like jazz to me.

I dunno, I think you can work either instrument either way. Look at Ron McClure with Fourth Way, he played a lot of DB that just kills played on either instrument.

I've experienced the when auditioning for a couple of big bands on EB, especially from the old hands. Once we are in the middle of the 2nd or 3rd tune though, I've looked over and those guys (the whole sax section in one case) are talking to each other and nodding yes. I guess I've been lucky with the small groups; they've all been pretty open-minded.

Part of it's the tone, part is the fingers, and the rest is the mindset IMO.

 

[Jim Nazium]

... at this late stage of 'relatively straight ahead jazz', it is a little tedious to discuss the issue when the 'payoff' is a $75 gig in a dump.

Wait ... $75 for a jazz gig? Will you call me when you need a sub?

 

[KJung]

Wait ... $75 for a jazz gig? Will you call me when you need a sub?

OK, this thread is now starting to deliver