Your characterisation of metal is extremely offensive. And there's more to jazz than bebop.Snarf said:
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Jazz metal?
- Thread starter SenorQueso
- Start date
Snarf said:
That's like me saying jazz is all squealing saxophone noodling over walking double bass and a clichéd swung hihat. Because that's the stereotype. Somehow I think that might offend you.
But I know there's more to jazz than that.
Just as metal isn't all power chords, double bass drums and guttural screaming.
It's in there, but by no means is that all there is to it. There is some fantastic musicianship in metal, much of it jazz-influenced, especially if you look at the recent crop of Scandinavian bands such as Opeth. Melody, complex harmony, lyrical depth... it's all in there. And they're not the only ones.
Try opening your mind. You might like what you hear if you dig deeper.
Snarf said:
Coltrane....well voiced chord?Sweet Harmony? Have you listened to Ascension? I don't hear much "sweet " in those harmonies. More like sheets of aural hail.I'm no expert, but I also think that a normal, "well Voiced jazz chord" can be heard.Of course that is where it's beauty lies. Same could be said for a lot of metal.
Ephel Duath are playing a tiny little basement in Brighton next month... I think I have to be there! 
I played there a few times last year... the stage is like a shelf... 
I played there a few times last year... the stage is like a shelf... Hey, i dig the discussion. I think Jerry Cantrell would be a good candidate for doing an easier going jazz-metal style (no he hasnt yet, but he played bluesy metal so tastefully).
I remember Scofield using some metal stylings in a lot of his soloing.
As for Opeth, not entirely jazzy, but they do have jazzy breakdowns that is true. It's hardly the essence of their music, but even the Doors and Jimi had some jazz influence, but were hardly very familiar with pure jazz...they just took one or two aspects (latin or free/avant-garde for instance).
BUT I think whoever says that jazz is just that swing, walking bass, sweet lines is just bs-ing. Jazz is jazz and goes a lot deeper than that. That, my friend is swing or bebop or cool.
Coltrane did bebop and avant-garde and then fusions with other rhythmic/harmonic/melodic stylings. Well are you saying that he USED to do jazz, then switched? I don't think so.
Metal is great:
1) I understand how people feel about Growling, BUT think about a bunch of really aggressive young fellows chugging as hard as they can at their instruments...as they got into the darker, deeper, heavier music (even if it sounds great and thought out) are they just going to sing some nice melodic vocals? I dont think so...they are gonna belt out that aggression.
NB: DONT JUDGE DEATH METAL UNTIL YOU ATTEND A CONCERT....its all about the energy, man...for real. I attend so many concerts but only listen at home to the more interesting musical bands. Some of the simpler more aggressive artists are just meant to be felt live with people banging around.
2) There is nothing wrong with music that doesnt swing, brother. It has its place. When your yelling a war-protest...are you going to sound like Mingus...didn't really work out as well, did it...try Rage Against the Machine.
Frustrated people don't want to swing.
3) I credit a lot of my metal compositions to the small understanding I have of jazz harmonies and theory. It really allows you to open up to new dynamics in all three aspects of music. There may not be any true "jazz-metal" but jazz has certainly brought metal out of its pidgeon-hole.
Good discussion...keep it coming!
I remember Scofield using some metal stylings in a lot of his soloing.
As for Opeth, not entirely jazzy, but they do have jazzy breakdowns that is true. It's hardly the essence of their music, but even the Doors and Jimi had some jazz influence, but were hardly very familiar with pure jazz...they just took one or two aspects (latin or free/avant-garde for instance).
BUT I think whoever says that jazz is just that swing, walking bass, sweet lines is just bs-ing. Jazz is jazz and goes a lot deeper than that. That, my friend is swing or bebop or cool.
Coltrane did bebop and avant-garde and then fusions with other rhythmic/harmonic/melodic stylings. Well are you saying that he USED to do jazz, then switched? I don't think so.
Metal is great:
1) I understand how people feel about Growling, BUT think about a bunch of really aggressive young fellows chugging as hard as they can at their instruments...as they got into the darker, deeper, heavier music (even if it sounds great and thought out) are they just going to sing some nice melodic vocals? I dont think so...they are gonna belt out that aggression.
NB: DONT JUDGE DEATH METAL UNTIL YOU ATTEND A CONCERT....its all about the energy, man...for real. I attend so many concerts but only listen at home to the more interesting musical bands. Some of the simpler more aggressive artists are just meant to be felt live with people banging around.
2) There is nothing wrong with music that doesnt swing, brother. It has its place. When your yelling a war-protest...are you going to sound like Mingus...didn't really work out as well, did it...try Rage Against the Machine.
Frustrated people don't want to swing.
3) I credit a lot of my metal compositions to the small understanding I have of jazz harmonies and theory. It really allows you to open up to new dynamics in all three aspects of music. There may not be any true "jazz-metal" but jazz has certainly brought metal out of its pidgeon-hole.
Good discussion...keep it coming!
Personally I can't stand the screaming mush of death metal. Bands like Dillenger Escape Plan have been rumored to choose time signatures with a 20 side di, is that really musical?
However I like the classic like Iron Maiden and Sabbath, but they blended blues into their music, in the case of Sabbath, or classical licks, in the case of Iron Maiden. Neither of them was ever jazzy. People have a tendancy to put the name jazz on anything with improvisation, odd times, and odd keys and I don't think it fits with everything.
Again the closest thing to jazz metal that I can think of is the first iteration of the Mahavishnu Orchestra with the Intermounting Flame and Birds of Fire albums. McLaughlin was using licks that the metal guys didn't touch till the 80's and Billy Cobham is a monster on the drums, and yes they play in odd time signatures, 4/4 is a rarity.
However I like the classic like Iron Maiden and Sabbath, but they blended blues into their music, in the case of Sabbath, or classical licks, in the case of Iron Maiden. Neither of them was ever jazzy. People have a tendancy to put the name jazz on anything with improvisation, odd times, and odd keys and I don't think it fits with everything.
Again the closest thing to jazz metal that I can think of is the first iteration of the Mahavishnu Orchestra with the Intermounting Flame and Birds of Fire albums. McLaughlin was using licks that the metal guys didn't touch till the 80's and Billy Cobham is a monster on the drums, and yes they play in odd time signatures, 4/4 is a rarity.
flatwoundfender said:
Good point about the Mahavishnu (I love those albums! and especially mclaughlin)
This is where music categorization becomes tricky:
Music is a malleable thing...there is no PURE form/idea/whatever of music or a style of music...it is the sum of its makers, its influences, its tools, meaning, intentions, implications and its contexts.
Look at classical music...can you distinctly identify what is classical music? I dont think so. It is just as malleable and fickle as jazz (Schoenburg just a small inkling). There are tons of variations and it borrows from tons of other more intricate and more primative forms of music
It has more to do with WHO made the music, WHEN they made it, and WHAT were the influences/intentions. Its a cultural (and somewhat of a class) issue, as well.
Music is universal, but only that it is adaptive. You won't have a teenage white boy from new england creating the same style of music as a poor black trubadour from the Mississippi...but you may call both "styles of blues".
As I said, Opeth is just as folk/classical/metal influenced as it is jazz influenced. It isn't "Jazz" it is touched and moved by jazz. Its intentions and expression are something most would call "metal"...although at another time by others it might be called some type of progressive classical/folk fusion. Who knows?
These are just my theories,
Colin
I thought their tour got cancelled? Should be a good gig, my mate saw them here last year and loved it.XO-Bionic said:Ephel Duath are playing a tiny little basement in Brighton next month... I think I have to be there!
Thats a good point, although I have found as I've listened to more and more death metal that a good band will sound good on record and live. A bad band will sound bad on record and live, but you won't notice cos you're too caught up in the moment to noticeXolin said:
FWIW, I've also found this with free jazz, which certainly doesn't have sweet harmonies or swung 8ths... at least not very often Actually, it happens with most gigs... the more beers I've had, the better the last band invariably are
velvetkevorkian said:
The European tour was cancelled, but they've scheduled another UK tour... I think the nearest gig to you is probably Middlesborough, alas. Will let you know what I think.
Jazz metal? Hmm, makes me think about Vintersorg. That guy made a one-man band and does some realy weird stuff. Black metal and lots of jazzy parts. Weird, but so good...
Please doXO-Bionic said:The European tour was cancelled, but they've scheduled another UK tour... I think the nearest gig to you is probably Middlesborough, alas. Will let you know what I think.
