Jazz vs. Smooth Jazz

[burk48237]

We had very similar paths...until this part.
Granted, it's only been the past 10 years or so...but as far as Jazz goes, "Free Jazz" (trios, small band, big band, etc)...is pretty much where I've been living since 1999.
Those "hoops" you mentioned are "walls".
Melody? It's a chain.
You mentioned Miles & Coltrane...did you stop before Bitches Brew & Ascension?

I will admit...I could not stomach either during the '70s, '80, & early '90s. I dunno, after much reading, more listening, wondering why I didn't like it, etc...something clicked.




You gotta admit...releasing something as "shocking" as some of Miles' electric/outside recordings was a big risk.
I mean, he could have made Columbia very happy if he stayed in the Kind Of Blue vibe for the duration.

I've got Ascension, it's not my favorite. Ballads is actually my favorite Trane CD but that's as much for Elvin Jones exquisite drum work as Tranes playing. I've also go the complete Bitches set, like my friend KJung says "that's almost too much Bitches Brew". I like Files De Kilimanjaro which is a transitional (half electric) CD. I agree with you about Miles move to electric. But it wasn't my favorite Miles work. None of that stuff gets as much rotation as Someday my Prince Will Come, Milestones, Four and More or the 65-68 boxed set.

If you like Free Jazz go for it. I'm not saying it's not Jazz, although in some ways it may be the ultimate in "snob music". I've never met a non musician who liked it that wasn't high when they were listening. But to me, Melody is the anchor that keeps it from becoming a shipwreck. I'm not interested in how a player approaches improvisation over a Cm7b5+13, I'm interested in how they reinterpret a great melody. I think Jazz began to lose its audience when it lost this concept, and with the exception of Pat Metheny, most of the current great songwriters aren't writing in Jazz today.

I recall during the explosion of smooth Jazz around the turn of the millennium hearing smooth "jazz" tunes with Drum machine and programmed synth bass. Sorry, That IS NOT JAZZ. The interplay between real musicians is certainly a key component of real jazz.

In the Detroit area where smooth Jazz is big (so was real jazz) I suspect that Smooth Jazz became kind of the R & B for baby boomers. It was huge in the local African community, because it gave Baby boomer African Americans something to listen too besides Rap. A lot of the players are local, and there is a lot of crossover between the Gospel and Smooth Jazz scene. The Music director for my church toured on Drums with Jeff Lober, We had the Ali brothers, Mike Harrington, Earl Klugh, Bob James (university of MI). I would call it instrumental R & B, and in some cases it is performed by excellent musicians.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I've got Ascension, it's not my favorite. Ballads is actually my favorite Trane CD but that's as much for Elvin Jones exquisite drum work as Tranes playing. I've also go the complete Bitches set, like my friend KJung says "that's almost too much Bitches Brew". I like Files De Kilimanjaro which is a transitional (half electric) CD. I agree with you about Miles move to electric. But it wasn't my favorite Miles work. None of that stuff gets as much rotation as Someday my Prince Will Come, Milestones, Four and More or the 65-68 boxed set.

If you like Free Jazz go for it. I'm not saying it's not Jazz, although in some ways it may be the ultimate in "snob music". I've never met a non musician who liked it that wasn't high when they were listening. But to me, Melody is the anchor that keeps it from becoming a shipwreck. I'm not interested in how a player approaches improvisation over a Cm7b5+13, I'm interested in how they reinterpret a great melody. I think Jazz began to lose its audience when it lost this concept, and with the exception of Pat Metheny, most of the current great songwriters aren't writing in Jazz today.

I recall during the explosion of smooth Jazz around the turn of the millennium hearing smooth "jazz" tunes with Drum machine and programmed synth bass. Sorry, That IS NOT JAZZ. The interplay between real musicians is certainly a key component of real jazz.

In the Detroit area where smooth Jazz is big (so was real jazz) I suspect that Smooth Jazz became kind of the R & B for baby boomers. It was huge in the local African community, because it gave Baby boomer African Americans something to listen too besides Rap. A lot of the players are local, and there is a lot of crossover between the Gospel and Smooth Jazz scene. The Music director for my church toured on Drums with Jeff Lober, We had the Ali brothers, Mike Harrington, Earl Klugh, Bob James (university of MI). I would call it instrumental R & B, and in some cases it is performed by excellent musicians.

That last part explains a lot to me about why it is big where you say and how it is virtually non-existent to me !

 

[Dr_Funkdamental]

In the Detroit area where smooth Jazz is big (so was real jazz) I suspect that Smooth Jazz became kind of the R & B for baby boomers. It was huge in the local African community, because it gave Baby boomer African Americans something to listen too besides Rap. A lot of the players are local, and there is a lot of crossover between the Gospel and Smooth Jazz scene. The Music director for my church toured on Drums with Jeff Lober, We had the Ali brothers, Mike Harrington, Earl Klugh, Bob James (university of MI). I would call it instrumental R & B, and in some cases it is performed by excellent musicians.

Bad generalization. There was more African American music besides Rap. Umm, Motown? Soul music? Even you talked about EWF. I can agree with the rest, but the bold is not a good assessment.

 

[burk48237]

Bad generalization. There was more African American music besides Rap. Umm, Motown? Soul music? Even you talked about EWF. I can agree with the rest, but the bold is not a good assessment.

I'm talking the era around 2000 when Smooth Jazz exploded as a radio item. Motown and EWF weren't current. No doubt there is more African American Music besides rap, And while I don't want to put myself in the position of speaking for a community I'm not a member of. I suspect that many baby boomer black Americans are tiered of rap and most modern R & B as well.

I'm well aware of Motown and EWF, that's what that generation grew up on, to them (and me) that's "classic rock." I'm talking about taste in current musical product. In the Detroit area the so-called Smooth Jazz bills are always booked solid, and I suspect this is the reason. The Kids may like Ludicrous, but the Parents prefer Luther Vandross. It's not a criticism of them, I prefer it to most modern R & B myself. I think the same thing is true of Urban Gospel. The messages are uplifting, the musicianship is excellent, and the tunes groove.

This doesn't take anything away from the real Jazz scene in Detroit. Detroit has a great Jazz festival a few great Jazz clubs including the oldest Jazz club at the same location in world. And while everything is effected by the local economy, Real Jazz is still popular here, But smooth Jazz is huge in this city.

 

[JimK]

I've also go the complete Bitches set, like my friend KJung says "that's almost too much Bitches Brew".

...the more, the better, IMO. In fact, it was after I listened to the entire box that BB sunk it. True story: Few years ago, I was at my mom's playing BB on a boombox while I was catching some rays...eventually, she's comes out & sez "What the...I thought a train was coming through the yard"?!

I've never met a non musician who liked it that wasn't high when they were listening.

There were a few non-musician types at Jazz Corner that were HUGE fans of Free Jazz...these guys were serious listeners & collectors. That they were non-musicians really pissed off many at that site that were musicians & non-fans of Free Jazz. It was pretty entertaining when I first came online.
...a lot of those DISScussions led me to check out a lot of new stuff.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

...
There were a few non-musician types at Jazz Corner that were HUGE fans of Free Jazz...these guys were serious listeners & collectors. That they were non-musicians really pissed off many at that site that were musicians & non-fans of Free Jazz. It was pretty entertaining when I first came online.
...a lot of those DISScussions led me to check out a lot of new stuff.

Radio 3 on the BBC has one serious Jazz programme per week and it is generally the most "out" Free Jazz you could imagine and it seems to have a lot of serious fans and is chaired by somebody who is not known as a musician.

I get the impression that there are people who look for the most "extreme" musical experience you can find in whatever genre - avant garde classical, electronic etc.

 

[Elrend]

A few months ago I was at a jazz festival in Finland, almost every single band played some sort of free-jazz/avant-garde jazz, and honestly, several of them were the most brilliant musicians I've ever heard!

I mean, my main preference as of late is contemporary post-bop (Mehldau, Glasper, Rosenwinkel, Methenys latest endeavours etc.) But I've been a huge free-jazz fan and consider it one of the most exciting idioms of jazz today.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I think it is better experienced live and you really get the sense of excitement - whereas if I put on a CD, it'll probably be something more structured.

 

[Elrend]

I think it is better experienced live and you really get the sense of excitement - whereas if I put on a CD, it'll probably be something more structured.

Scandinavian improvisers such as The Thing, Nordic Trinity, Klaus Holm Kollektief and OFFONOFF are usually just as exciting and free on record.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Scandinavian improvisers such as The Thing, Nordic Trinity, Klaus Holm Kollektief and OFFONOFF are usually just as exciting and free on record.

I just think the whole experience is very different - so if you are there in the venue, seeing how the players interact and are fully concentrating on what is going on, with an audience doing the same - it is completely different to a sound coming out of a box with no context and maybe in the background of doing something else...?

The music may be exactly the same - it is how you experience that music - the context!

 

[JimK]

I get the impression that there are people who look for the most "extreme" musical experience you can find in whatever genre - avant garde classical, electronic etc.

Yes...in some books I have read about "Free Jazz"...there are many fans of Punk Rock that gravitate to the more "out" side of Jazz. Personally, I found that shocking (IMO, Punk was an anti-technique thing while Jazz was the ultimate in technique). Anyway, guys like David S. Ware would be opening shows for, say, Sonic Youth.

 

[burk48237]

Yes...in some books I have read about "Free Jazz"...there are many fans of Punk Rock that gravitate to the more "out" side of Jazz. Personally, I found that shocking (IMO, Punk was an anti-technique thing while Jazz was the ultimate in technique). Anyway, guys like David S. Ware would be opening shows for, say, Sonic Youth.

That might account for it. I doubt you'll ever see me at a Sonic Youth or Sex Pistols concert.


Here's a question for all of you:

Are any of these bands or Artist Smooth Jazz or just Jazz?

Crusaders?

Ramsey Lewis?

Grover Washington Jr.?

George Benson?

Al Jareau?

Weather Report?

Yellow Jackets?

Bob James?

Flim and the BB's?

Lee Ritenour?

Pat Metheny?

Michael Brecker?

Joshua Redman?

Cannonball Adderly?

Roy Hargrove?

Diane Krall?

Basia?

 

[Elrend]

Redman is definitely jazz, Metheny on the other hand...

I would consider his later works jazz, whereas I would say that the Pat Metheny Group is not (except for "The Way Up").

 

[JimK]

That might account for it. I doubt you'll ever see me at a Sonic Youth or Sex Pistols concert.

Me neither!

Here's a question for all of you:

Are any of these bands or Artist Smooth Jazz or just Jazz?

OK, IMO...none. Now, that said, many on your list have dipped into differing sub-genres of Jazz, including Pop-Jazz (Benson, Jarreau).

Take Mike Brecker-
...his 1st solo album? C'mon, it's an '80s Jazz classic. Then there's the Brecker Brothers Band...a fusion of Jazz/Funk/Rock/R&B.
Early Weather Report? At times, you could put them in the Free Jazz camp...early on, they were kinda/sorta an esoteric Jazz band. Later, Jazz-Funk/R&B.

Without going through you entire list-
Many have put out "Electric Jazz" & "Acoustic Jazz". The Yellowjackets have albums were they're obviously electric (Haslip, Ferrante, & Mintzer)...but in an acoustic-style vibe. I'm thinking of the Blue Hats album.

Smooth does not = electric Jazz, IMO.
Smooth, IMO, is processed Pop/R&B/Jazz. Jazz being the last ingredient.

 

[fearceol]

Here's a question for all of you:

Are any of these bands or Artist Smooth Jazz or just Jazz?

Crusaders?

Ramsey Lewis?

Grover Washington Jr.?

George Benson?

Al Jareau?

Weather Report?

Yellow Jackets?

Bob James?

Flim and the BB's?

Lee Ritenour?

Pat Metheny?

Michael Brecker?

Joshua Redman?

Cannonball Adderly?

Roy Hargrove?

Diane Krall?

Basia?

IMO...none.

So I assume you dont agree with Bruce's definition of jazz..i.e. it has to be improvised on the spot ?

Take the Crusaders for instance (apart from their Jazz Crusaders era). I was at a concert of theirs a long time ago. They played material from their non Jazz Crusaders era. Some of the pieces were extended improvisations.

Not jazz !! ??

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

So I assume you dont agree with Bruce's definition of jazz..i.e. it has to be improvised on the spot ?

No - that's not what I said! So I said that a Jazz band playing today, needs to include some element of group improvisation to be considered Jazz and that if there was no improvisation at all then it could not be considered to be Jazz!

I never used the phrase "be improvised on the spot " - go back and look through all my posts in this thread...

But that sounds like a definition of "Free Jazz" - which is a subset of Jazz.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Crusaders?

George Benson?

Al Jarreau?

Weather Report?

Yellow Jackets?

Bob James?


Lee Ritenour?

Pat Metheny?

Michael Brecker?

Joshua Redman?

Cannonball Adderly?

Roy Hargrove?

Diane Krall?

I will play the game and have deleted either those I don't know (so can't comment) or which I don't think are Jazz!

So those left are where I consider they have played Jazz at some point in their career.

Anybody who doubts Diana Krall's credentials only need to read the interview in BP magazine with Christian McBride - who should know!!

 

[JimK]

So I assume you dont agree with Bruce's definition of jazz..i.e. it has to be improvised on the spot ?

Take the Crusaders for instance (apart from their Jazz Crusaders era). I was at a concert of theirs a long time ago. They played material from their non Jazz Crusaders era. Some of the pieces were extended improvisations.

Not jazz !! ??

Man...me and Bruce? You haven't figured out that we're the same guy, yet?
Some Jazz is definitely arranged (Duke/Strayhorn? Mingus? Gil Evans?)...some Free Jazz ("improvised on the spot") can almost be categorized as "modern Classical" (in fact, there's an Ives piece from the early 1900s that could pass for '60s Free Jazz. Obviously, Ives had written/arranged this piece out for an small orchestra).

Seriously, maybe I wasn't clear-
None on burk's list, IMO, are "Smooth"...all on burk's list have played, what I conveniently call, "Electric Jazz" &/or "Acoustic Jazz". Once upon a time, that's how I filed away my Jazz albums.
Bands like Return To Forever were filed away in both sections.
Nowadaze, everyone's together A-Z (Air through Zorn with all those on burk's list in-between somewhere).

Anyway-
The Crusaders I know = "Electric Jazz"...although some of the last things I bought from them (& it's been about 15 years since I last bought a Crusaders' album) did veer into Pop/Jazz.

 

[fearceol]

Man...me and Bruce? You haven't figured out that we're the same guy, yet?

Seriously, maybe I wasn't clear-
None on burk's list, IMO, are "Smooth"...all on burk's list have played, what I conveniently call, "Electric Jazz" &/or "Acoustic Jazz". Once upon a time, that's how I filed away my Jazz albums.
Bands like Return To Forever were filed away in both sections.

Anyway-
The Crusaders I know = "Electric Jazz"...although some of the last things I bought from them (& it's been about 15 years since I last bought a Crusaders' album) did veer into Pop/Jazz.

I'm still a little confused. As I said earlier in the thread, all this labeling bores me to tears, but I'm just curious as to what criteria you use.

Bob James in on that list. I always thought that he was regarded as one of the "kings" of smooth jazz. Stuff like his "Angela" (theme from "Taxi"), I have seen on numerious occasions being defined as "smooth". It just goes to prove my point on how futile this pidgeon-holing concept really is. It is a matter of interpretation.

Maybe you should use A-Z by artist name when filing your music.

Re Crusaders : I also, have not bought any of their albums for a long time, as their later stuff did not appeal to me. By the way, you call this "Pop/Jazz". What's the difference in your opinion between it and "smooth" ?

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

The Crusaders I know = "Electric Jazz"...although some of the last things I bought from them (& it's been about 15 years since I last bought a Crusaders' album) did veer into Pop/Jazz.

Yes - this is what is confusing some of this discussion - so, people are talking about artists who were playing 15 or more years ago, as if they were around today!

Whereas, I tend to talk about what is happening today in 2010.

The other things is that this leads to "changing history" - so in the 1970s, there was no such thing as Smooth Jazz, the term had never been used - but artists like the Crusaders were playing and Bob James was playing some great stuff on TV soundtracks and with Tom Scott, if I remember correctly..?

But this is all long ago in the past and surely we should be looking at what the music means today and cannot label it retrospectively - that just cheating!!

It's like saying that Mozart is a chill-out artist, because some of his music appeared on a compilation CD to help you relax!!