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Jazz vs. Smooth Jazz

Hey Bruce-
Maybe it's semantics...do you guys have something called Contemporary Jazz?
...AKA (here) as Smooth Jazz.

I ask 'cause I've been down that road with you before over Acid Jazz.
;)

Well - I think we both agreed that had nothing to do with Jazz - but Contemporary Jazz to me, means "cutting edge" - as I was saying 21/8 tunes based on Harmony from Olivier Messaien!! :p

I think what surprises me about this thread is the lack of contributors from London (and maybe England) - so London has huge amount of Jazz, but I rarely see people from London on TB talking about Jazz...:confused:

Maybe I need to start another thread asking about where the London Jazz fans are...?
 
Well - I think we both agreed that had nothing to do with Jazz - but Contemporary Jazz to me, means "cutting edge" - as I was saying 21/8 tunes based on Harmony from Olivier Messaien!! :p


I don't think anyone agreed on that. You seemed to be perplexed that the pizza club venue was just hosting "jazz" - when those are quite clearly contemporary, or smooth jazz artists.
 
Well - I've got thousands of CDs and have given more away, but have never heard of any of those names..:confused:

In the spirit of open-mindedness I looked up the first names, finding this tour and it says :

Dave Koz "Instrumental Pop Saxophonist"


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:D

Yet all those artist have sold Thousands of CD's and downloads maybe even more than you own
 
Smooth jazz is not jazz as it removes the entire improvisational bit.

On the other hand, replicating a bunch of Parker is not jazz either... But just to go a bit off-topic, what do people on here think of the more contemporary improvisational music, such as Rosenwinkel, Aaron Parks, Fly Trio, Robert Glasper, Mehldau etc.? Is it jazz even though it does not feature walking bass and swing rhythms? Is it jazz even though Mehldau interprets 90's rock classics?
 
Robert Glasper, Mehldau etc.? Is it jazz even though it does not feature walking bass and swing rhythms? Is it jazz even though Mehldau interprets 90's rock classics?


Ah..some artists I have heard of! :)

Yup - Brad Mehldau is certainly playing Jazz in the tradition - as I said elsewhere, Jazz artists have always taken the popular music of their day (that interested them) and made it their own, through altering chords, changing feel and improvising interactively...etc.

Brad is a prime example of all of that and there's no doubt he is doing the same kind of thing that artists like Bill Evans did before him in his Jazz trios. :)

Jazz quite clearly doesn't have to have walking bass and swing - plenty of bossa beats and 2-feel, 3/4 or 6/8 tunes in the history of Jazz!
 
Ah..some artists I have heard of! :)

Yup - Brad Mehldau is certainly playing Jazz in the tradition - as I said elsewhere, Jazz artists have always taken the popular music of their day (that interested them) and made it their own, through altering chords, changing feel and improvising interactively...etc.

Brad is a prime example of all of that and there's no doubt he is doing the same kind of thing that artists like Bill Evans did before him in his Jazz trios. :)

Jazz quite clearly doesn't have to have walking bass and swing - plenty of bossa beats and 2-feel, 3/4 or 6/8 tunes in the history of Jazz!

Of course, but there seems to be a conception of jazz being mainly what was done in the 40s - 60s, somewhat discrediting innovative contemporary improvisers. I think this trend is worrying... I mean, I've been through everything, jazz samba, bossa, jazz waltz, swing, shuffle, modal, free jazz etc. Yet still my preference both while listening and playing remains firmly planted in the late 90s to the early 00s.

What is your opinion on scandinavian Nu-jazz (Molvær, Arild Andersen, Jaga Jazzist etc.)?
 
At my local Jazz club, there is very rarely anything that relates back to bebop and I can go months without hearing a walking bass line! This Friday there is a trio lead by a Norwegian bassist and I expect to hear stuff like this.

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I like Jazz from the 60s, but when I go to see Jazz groups play now, I expect to see them relate to what is happening now and reference all that is around them! :)
 
At my local Jazz club, there is very rarely anything that relates back to bebop and I can go months without hearing a walking bass line! This Friday there is a trio lead by a Norwegian bassist and I expect to hear stuff like this.

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I like Jazz from the 60s, but when I go to see Jazz groups play now, I expect to see them relate to what is happening now and reference all that is around them! :)

Ah, sounds like my kind of thing! :)
 
On the other hand, replicating a bunch of Parker is not jazz either...
Agree 100%...the thing is, though, it will sound like (Bebop) Jazz.

But just to go a bit off-topic, what do people on here think of the more contemporary improvisational music, such as Rosenwinkel, Aaron Parks, Fly Trio, Robert Glasper, Mehldau etc.? Is it jazz even though it does not feature walking bass and swing rhythms? Is it jazz even though Mehldau interprets 90's rock classics?

Jazz does not require walking bass/swing feel...that is the same logic tossed by the Bop/Big Band crowd at those that are into Free Jazz/New Thing...(& the Free crowd usually countered with your above statement about regurgitated Parker licks not being Jazz).
Jazz has various genres...some are a reaction to the previous genre. Bop was a response to the Big Band/Swing era; New Thing/Free Jazz a response to Hard Bop/Cool...Fusion was a response to Free Jazz..."Smooth" was a response to Fusion, & on & on.

FWIW-
All Jazz, IMO.
Rosenwinkel, Mehldau, et al may be playing in the idiom...but, IMO, it does not sound dated.
Reinventing Rock Classics? Jazz has a history of interpreting Pop tunes.
 
I agree with most of that - I suppose the question is - at what point does it stop being Jazz at all...? That is - what do we need to have in place for something to be considered "Jazz" and what do we consider cannot be lost, or it is no longer Jazz?

I'm not saying I have any answers ...:p
 
Yeah, but I've noticed that most of the talkbass crowd leans toward bop or fusion, I wanted to see if there were anyone beside me that preferred 21. century post-bop.

If I'm going to see live Jazz - then yes, definitely! Most exciting gigs - Dave Holland, Wayne Shorter's current quartet and a lot of modern UK/European Jazz!

If I'm putting on a Jazz CD though - it might well be from the 60s!! ;)


EDIT - this thread made me think that Courtney Pine can be one of the most exciting live Jazz artists - although there is not much about on the net apart from his 80s stuff - this little clip gives a flavour :

 
Very true. I have always been a big fan of Sanborn's. He also featured on an album with Tim Berne (I think) playing the music of Julius Hempell. However, (although he does not like the idea himself), he is generally considered by most to be of that dreaded "smooth" genre.

What must Messrs Cook and Morton have been thinking, to contaminate the jazz "bible" this way. :eek: :p


Seriously, when you think of it, isn't all this labeling silly and futile ? I certainly think so.

Sanborn for me occupies a very unique space musically. He is VERY talented and distinctive sounding, has a strong R&B background and truly LOVES and respects the jazz art form. I've read some interviews with him, and he never really considered himself a full blown jazz player to start with, and its his honesty and humility that really carries him. His playing has so much feeling and genuine soul in it.

Two albums of his I would highly recommend are "Another Hand", a very eclectic and experimental disc, and "Upfront" where he really turns up the funk and just lets loose.

All told, David Sanborn for me is just too danged good to pigeonhole as "smooth jazz", he's his own thing altogether.
 
Sanborn for me occupies a very unique space musically. He is VERY talented and distinctive sounding, has a strong R&B background and truly LOVES and respects the jazz art form. I've read some interviews with him, and he never really considered himself a full blown jazz player to start with, and its his honesty and humility that really carries him. His playing has so much feeling and genuine soul in it.

Two albums of his I would highly recommend are "Another Hand", a very eclectic and experimental disc, and "Upfront" where he really turns up the funk and just lets loose.

All told, David Sanborn for me is just too danged good to pigeonhole as "smooth jazz", he's his own thing altogether.


+ 1 to all of the above.

I have the two cd's you mention. The one I could not remember in my earlier post is "Diminutive Mysteries" - Mostly Hemphill. If you dont have it, it's worth checking out. Sanborn really shines on it.
 
Wow, Interesting discussion, I need to get out of OT and Basses more. A few points on how I look at it as a listener.

How do you tell the difference between smooth jazz and jazz?

First, I need to establish where I'm coming from. I came to Jazz from a Rock-Blues background. In the early 70's my favorite bands were Cream, Allman Brothers, Free, etc. The more I got into music the more I started appreciating bands like Earth Wind and Fire and Chicago. As I was just starting to play I read an interview with Robert Lamn of Chicago and he mentioned Herbie Hancock as an influence. I heard he was going to be on PBS so I checked it out. The opening act was Return to Forever (this was early-Stainly was still playing a Fender J).

I quickly became a fusion snob, Weather Report, Steely Dan, Headhunters, Jaco, Mahavishnu, Miles, and later Metheny. I rarely bought any pop cd's after about 81. Although I still played some on bands. By about 90 I had tuned out pop altogether and became a Golden Era of Jazz fan. I now have just about everything Miles, Coltrane, Dexter Gordon, Sonny Rollins, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Bill Evans, Sonny Stitt, Hank Mobley, Kenny Burrell, Grant Green and Thelonious Monk did before about 65. Of the Modern Artists I like Joshua Redman, some James Carter, Brad Meldah, Larry Coryell and of course Pat Metheny.

1) You can't judge by popularity, the two best selling Jazz albums ever are Kind of Blue and Time out. I doubt anyone could seriously say they aren't real Jazz albums. Miles Davis was the best selling artist on Columbia records in 1960. People forget, Jazz was pop music.

2) I appreciate good melody and good improvisation in contrast to that good melody. You won't see Song X, Zero Tolerance for Silence or Ornette or the Chicago Art Ensemble in my collection. I'm not sure its "improvisation" when it occurs in a vacuum. To me Free Jazz is like watching a basketball game without hoops, it gets boring real quick. I have no problem with players who play out as part of their exploration. But Melody is still a huge part of what makes a great song.

3) To me the big difference is the willingness to take chances. The great fusion players educated and elevated their audience, basically the jam band audience for classic rock. Where I see a lot of the smooth jazz artists fail is that they refuse to introduce any ideas that force their audiences to listen consequently it becomes elevator or background music.

4) For most musicians music is a passion but it also has to be a means of income. The really good players play all the time in a variety of situations to make a living at it. I respect that some compromises have to be involved in that. There are a lot of musicians that cross over, Herbie Hancock comes to mind, Grover Washington played some great jazz in his era, and many consider him one of the founders of smooth Jazz. I certainly don't consider either one less of a Jazz musician because they haven't restricted their careers to blowing over Giant Steps.
 
2) I appreciate good melody and good improvisation in contrast to that good melody. You won't see Song X, Zero Tolerance for Silence or Ornette or the Chicago Art Ensemble in my collection. I'm not sure its "improvisation" when it occurs in a vacuum. To me Free Jazz is like watching a basketball game without hoops, it gets boring real quick. I have no problem with players who play out as part of their exploration. But Melody is still a huge part of what makes a great song.
We had very similar paths...until this part. ;)
Granted, it's only been the past 10 years or so...but as far as Jazz goes, "Free Jazz" (trios, small band, big band, etc)...is pretty much where I've been living since 1999.
Those "hoops" you mentioned are "walls".
Melody? It's a chain. ;)
You mentioned Miles & Coltrane...did you stop before Bitches Brew & Ascension?
;)
I will admit...I could not stomach either during the '70s, '80, & early '90s. I dunno, after much reading, more listening, wondering why I didn't like it, etc...something clicked.


3) To me the big difference is the willingness to take chances.

You gotta admit...releasing something as "shocking" as some of Miles' electric/outside recordings was a big risk.
I mean, he could have made Columbia very happy if he stayed in the Kind Of Blue vibe for the duration.
 
I'm with Jim - you just had to follow Coltrane - every album was different, but a progression from the preceding one! So Coltrane didn't repeat Giant Steps every time - he built on this and went to new places in every release - that's what makes him such a great artist! :)

Personally though - I think it's about experiencing Jazz in a live situation. So before I started going to Jazz gigs a lot of this stuff left me cold - but after I tried to play Jazz and went to a lot of live gigs at close quarters, the Free-er stuff became much more exciting!

(But of course it would be terrible as "background music"!! :p )
 

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