Jazz vs. Smooth Jazz

[Pacman]

But that is not the point - the point is that without improvisation and spontaneity - Jazz is not Jazz!

Actually, Bruce, that is exactly the point. He asked you how you knew how much improvisation was happening on a smooth jazz recording.


Additionally, to the other post, just because YOU don't know those artists does not mean that it's not making an impression in Europe. It just means that it's not making on you. There's a significant difference.

Also, that you don't see Brian Bromberg as a smooth jazz artist is exactly the point of this thread. At one point, he was the highest selling jazz artist next to The Kenny Who Must Not Be Named. Which is kind of the point of this whole thread - it appears that even for you, smooth jazz is hard to define.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Actually, Bruce, that is exactly the point. He asked you how you knew how much improvisation was happening on a smooth jazz recording.

But I was not talking about that - I was just saying that if there is no improvisation/spontaneity than it is not Jazz!

Additionally, to the other post, just because YOU don't know those artists does not mean that it's not making an impression in Europe. It just means that it's not making on you. There's a significant difference.

Well no - in the thread on this in the DB side, other Europeans, were saying that it just doesn't exit as far as they are concerned and I am very diligent about looking for all mentions of Jazz on European Radio/TV/Magazines etc.

The UK has an excellent Magazine called "JazzWise" which I read every month and it is quite clear what they mean by Jazz and the artists they cover - none of whom are "smooth"...

Also, that you don't see Brian Bromberg as a smooth jazz artist is exactly the point of this thread. At one point, he was the highest selling jazz artist next to The Kenny Who Must Not Be Named.

Well....Kind of Blue is the highest selling Jazz album ever- but I don't think you can claim that means is is an example of "Smooth Jazz"!!

Which is kind of the point of this whole thread - it appears that even for you, smooth jazz is hard to define.

But my point has always been that you can define Jazz - but I doubt that Smooth Jazz has anything to do with it and doesn't even exist as far as we are concerned in Europe!!

 

[Pacman]

But I was not talking about that - I was just saying that if there is no improvisation/spontaneity than it is not Jazz!

So you're saying that all smooth jazz solos are composed, and not improvised? That's what willgroove was asking you - have you ever been on a smooth jazz session so that you can say there's no improvising? (it's rhetorical, we know you have no idea what's improvised or not)

Well no - in the thread on this in the DB side, other Europeans, were saying that it just doesn't exit as far as they are concerned and I am very diligent about looking for all mentions of Jazz on European Radio/TV/Magazine etc.

My answer stands - because YOU don't know about it doesn't mean it's not happening. As evidenced by you missing the smooth jazz festival. It's ok, Bruce, Europe is a big place - it's almost the size of half the US, we understand.

The UK has an excellent Magazine called "JazzWise" which I read every month and it is quite clear what they mean by Jazz and the artists they cover - none of whom are "smooth"...

The UK? Or Europe? Because you said "Europe"....

But my point is that you can define Jazz - but I doubt that Smooth Jazz has anything to do with it and doesn't even exist as far as we are concerned in Europe!!

Well, you defined a smooth jazz artist as a jazz artist. What's up with that? Is it possible that you're not exactly sure what this smooth jazz thing is? Is it possible that maybe, just maybe, it's referring to some form of jazz? (again, rhetorical - because whether you want to admit it or not, it is)

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

So you're saying that all smooth jazz solos are composed, and not improvised? That's what willgroove was asking you - have you ever been on a smooth jazz session so that you can say there's no improvising?

But the point is that I was not talking about Smooth Jazz - but rather about Jazz - I was saying what Jazz is!

This thread is about both - not just the one sub-genre! I know about Jazz - and am not really interested in the other thing!!

Well, you defined a smooth jazz artist as a jazz artist. What's up with that?

No I didn't - where was that then - can you provide a quote? I was saying that if a musician never improvises then they are not a Jazz musician!

As I was saying above - I am only talking about Jazz !

All I was saying was that if it is "Jazz" then it must involve improvisation/spontaneity - I was saying nothing about any other type of music!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Actually, Bruce, that is exactly the point. He asked you how you knew how much improvisation was happening on a smooth jazz recording.

But that was not my point - I have no interest in how much improvisation was going on there - I was just saying that if there is no improvisation then it is not Jazz!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

The UK? Or Europe? Because you said "Europe"....

Just for info - Jazzwise covers European Jazz although it concentrates on the UK - London almost certainly has the busiest regular Jazz scene in Europe - excluding the one-off festivals.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I see....well to me, Jazz is Jazz, and Smooth Jazz is a different kind of Jazz. Perhaps the "smooth" could indicate that it does not have all the spontaneity and improvisational elements that other Jazz has.

I think this is where the confusion has started..?

So my point was in reply to the above, that if any music has no spontaneity/improvisation - then it cannot be classed as Jazz.

That implies no value judgement on that music - and I was making no comment about how much improvisation is involved in any genre...?

I was simply saying that if there is none of this - then it is not Jazz.

 

[JimK]

Also, that you don't see Brian Bromberg as a smooth jazz artist is exactly the point of this thread. At one point, he was the highest selling jazz artist next to The Kenny Who Must Not Be Named. Which is kind of the point of this whole thread - it appears that even for you, smooth jazz is hard to define.

IIRC, there were a couple of 'smooth' Brian Bromberg albums...I know I bought his initial 2 releases (those sorta in a Fusion vibe/filled the Jaco void)...then I stopped buying his stuff because, to my ears, it sounded like the processed material that was forever playing on the local Jazz station.

Anyway, it can get blurred.
Another example: Chris Botti.
A co-worker here loves Botti's albums & DVDs, etc.
So he goes to see Botti live in concert.
The next time I see him, he's bitching about the show...in Botti's band-
James Genus, Billy Childs, Billy Kilson, & Mark Whitfield. A KILLER rhythm section.
Now this is the guy that thinks Spyro Gyra is too "out".
He goes on & on & on about how he paid over $100 for the tickets, dinner was more $$, parking, blahblah...& Botti's band sounded nothing like the albums/DVDs that he owns. He shelled out good money to hear what he had on the cds & that's what he wanted...nothing more.
The local paper's music critiqued the concert & everything my friend complained about was in the review...although, in the review, my friend's issues were all POSITIVE!
...and he still doesn't get it.

 

[SteveC]

So Jimmy Haslip (Yellowjackets - many would call smooth) is not improvising those solos? I think many would beg to differ. If he is improvising - which I believe he is - than they wold have to be categorized as jazz, correct?

 

[Eublet]

Be careful with using improvisation as a defining characteristic of jazz. While it's a big part of what happens in the music, it is far from unique.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

IIRC, there were a couple of 'smooth' Brian Bromberg albums...I know I bought his initial 2 releases (those sorta in a Fusion vibe/filled the Jaco void)...then I stopped buying his stuff because, to my ears, it sounded like the processed material that was forever playing on the local Jazz station.

But the reason I mentioned him by name, is that he was put forward as part of a list of "European Smooth Jazz Artists" whereas he is clearly not - he may have played in Europe, but I maintain that there are no artists of European origin who play this kind of thing and that it has originated entirely in the US!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Be careful with using improvisation as a defining characteristic of jazz. While it's a big part of what happens in the music, it is far from unique.

I never said that it was unique to Jazz - what I was saying is that if there is no improvising or spontaneity, then it cannot be called Jazz.

It does not follow from that statement, that Jazz is the only music with improvisation - I know fully well this is a big part of many other types of music - Indian Raga, Baroque Chamber Music, etc etc.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

So Jimmy Haslip (Yellowjackets - many would call smooth) is not improvising those solos? I think many would beg to differ. If he is improvising - which I believe he is - than they wold have to be categorized as jazz, correct?

No - what I said was that if there was no improvisation/spontaneity involved, then it could not be called Jazz - I made no statement about anything other than this!

As has been mentioned - it is a logical mistake, to look at this the other other way around, as many types of music use improvisation!

 

[JimK]

...but I maintain that there are no artists of European origin who play this kind of thing and that it has originated entirely in the US!

Paul Hardcastle comes pretty close...

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Paul Hardcastle comes pretty close...

Well I have heard of Paul Hardcastle - he has written many themes for TV shows in the UK.

He is a programmer basically - his music is all pre-programmed that I have heard - so is as far away from "Jazz" as I could imagine.

I would call him a soundtrack writer and electronic musician - techno if you like...?

There is nothing of Jazz in his music - no Jazz history, no Jazz harmony, no improvisation - nil, zilch nada!!


Here is a link to an interview with him from the BBC :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/totp2/artists/h/hardcastle_paul/located/page1.shtml


" Electro-pop wizard Paul Hardcastle chats to us about '19', pioneering dance music and that TOTP theme tune...


This producer, mixer, composer and keyboard wizard was one of the UK dance music scene's first crossover successes. He first worked in a hi-fi shop and developed an interest in electronics in his teens. Paul made his recording debut in 1981 on 'Don't Depend On Me', a single by UK soul act Direct Drive.....etc"

It is only since he went to America that he has been considered Smooth Jazz - but he talks about it as a "Market" and not a type of music as such!

 

[Eublet]

I never said that it was unique to Jazz - what I was saying is that if there is no improvising or spontaneity, then it cannot be called Jazz.

I disagree still. It might not be "good" jazz, or as interesting to you, but it is still jazz.

Many artists work out their solo's beforehand. Even many more get to a point where they no longer improve their playing, and they simply regurgitate the same melodic ideas over and over again. Very little of what they are doing at this point is improvising, but it's still jazz.

I think labeling is a slippery slope. I'm not accusing you of this at all, but most folks who seem to want to protect what jazz is or isn't are folks who feel a bit snobbish over what they do versus what others can't do. Improvising at a high level is very much one of those snobbish criteria. I've yet to find a musical artform where musicians aren't improvising at some level.

For me, while improvisation, complex changes, trading bars, and other such things are staples of jazz, I don't think that's fair to say that something can't be called jazz simply because it's missing one of those things at a highly skilled level.

Am I playing jazz when I'm practicing walking bass with an Aebersold play along? What about if I'm playing the bass line from So What? That's pretty much written out for me. Still jazz.

What about a high-school standards quartet of novice players who have rehearsed everything they'll play before they do a gig? The bass player knows 3 or 4 patterns for walking the blues, and the trumpet player has worked out his solo to a TEE. Are they playing jazz? Gosh, I sure hope so. Matter's not to me if they're improvising or not.

Jazz is a style that's morphed into different thigns over the years. I think if you're inside the vein stylistically of anything that has been called jazz, then you are playing jazz music! It doesn't matter if the term is descriptive enough to convey more about the musical style or not. That's why we have such specific descriptors like fusion to clear things up!

 

[willgroove2]

But the reason I mentioned him by name, is that he was put forward as part of a list of "European Smooth Jazz Artists" whereas he is clearly not - he may have played in Europe, but I maintain that there are no artists of European origin who play this kind of thing and that it has originated entirely in the US!

Off the top of my head I'll name Saxophonist Courtney Pine and Ronny Jordan both British who have done music that is played in the smooth jazz format also, didn't jazz as YOU define it originate in the US?

 

[willgroove2]

But that was not my point - I have no interest in how much improvisation was going on there - I was just saying that if there is no improvisation then it is not Jazz!

Don't you think it's a bit dismissive to say somethings not jazz because you don't like it?

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

I'll bet "smooth jazz" pays better than real Jazz.... and in a free market, isn't that what determines "Value"?

(oh - and I hate "smooth Jazz" - just begin devil's advocate here...)

 

[Pacman]

But the reason I mentioned him by name, is that he was put forward as part of a list of "European Smooth Jazz Artists" whereas he is clearly not - he may have played in Europe, but I maintain that there are no artists of European origin who play this kind of thing and that it has originated entirely in the US!

No Bruce, he was on a list of smooth jazz players, many of whom were from the UK. I know he's not from the UK, since I took a few lessons from him when he lived in Tucson.