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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed

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The thing about human development is we still have fuctions from primate times that show in modern life. As "intelligent creatures" we place our own values on things that only have relevence to us as humans. We see a bass for example, other animals do not, they see what it is.. a piece of wood. In the development of learning and this includes music we have not had anywhere near the time to devlelop music as a value so we cannot lose it.

The saying "music calms the savage beast" is based on some long lost observation in time, but must have a relevence in fact somewhere along the way.

For us as players without the development of say the hand we have now, the music we play and listen to would not exist, that's a fact. Without brain development to support this new hand function as it developed millions and millions of years ago, again the hand would not develop into the one we have now. The brain would have to grow in size, new muscles, nerves and anatomical functions need to develop to support this simple new hand, because it is more complex than the one it replaces.

But not all primate or hominid life developed it, that's why the discovery of Lucy, who was australopithecines, the earliest of human ancestors to walk up-right with a better hand function than those before, would develop it further as the hands were now free from being used in supporting walking. This in turn would develop a new shoulder movement, which needs more new functions so a bigger brain as so on.

Again the brain is pivital in this as it has to control and use these functions as they develop, but what develops first the function or the brain? It is believed we had the brain capacity to comunicate, but not the vocal chords to make use of it, to form words, so maybe that is where song (which we call music) came from in our past.

To cut a very complicated subject short, learning is indeed genetic, we cannot stop ourselves from learning, it is in us to learn, you can take away the tools of learning, books, tools music, etc, but you cannot stop us from learning. The best way to learn is from experience and information in small or short pieces. This is why for most, long study does not work well, it needs to be broken down, to make the best use of not how we learn, but how we retain what we learn.

Everyone i'm sure has had an answer on the tip of their tongue, or knew an answer, but could not recall it till it was prompted at some point, that information was learned but not retained in a way that could be used when needed.
:cool:

Just to propose the completely alternate view :)

As interesting as the evolutionary theory of musical development is, I believe in the intelligent design point of view, and I am sure that many on talkbass share this view.
I believe that music resonates a core inside of every human that is always seeking to return back to the original created state of glory that our earliest ancestors were endowed with. I believe that there was music in heaven before there was anything, and there will be music in heaven after all this is gone.
I think this is the true meaning of why we all love beauty. Beauty recalls the desire of our soul to return to heaven. Of course standards of art and beauty change, but I think these parts of our brains were endowed as a gift.
No offense meant to the proponents of the other view, but I felt obligated to point out the other theory.
 
Just to propose the completely alternate view :)

Definitely not to argue - but the view you pose is not necessarily 'completely alternate' - or at least it does not have to compete with the scientific or historic views previously stated.

I believe that once you begin to see the similarities in all things you inevitably end up concluding that all things are not too terribly different and part of the 'point' is to seek the correlations and not get too bogged down in trying to segregate or differentiate.

All that aside, take a peek at the programs mentioned and you'll see that there's no intent to weed out the emotional or spiritual reality of music - only that the brain itself uses areas outside the speech centers to process it and that those who start delving into the academic side of music at a very early age have brain development and activity that is measurably different that those who do not. Does that bring them closer to God? Well, that's not for me to say one way or the other.

But it leads me to believe that if music is part of our innate makeup - in other words, present as an instinct like the need for feeding, reproducing and survival - and organized speech is part of something we learn, the way we learn to use music includes 'channeling' instinctual aspects of humanity (call it desire to reach/return to Heaven or a part of 'fight/flight') via training. This relates to music education in that being aware that part of expressing ourselves musically includes a 'cross-hemispheric' connection interfacing the left and right hemispheres of the brain in ways that are not normally done outside of music. The learned skills and brain development that is associate with early age music education could certainly manifest itself in many other areas where brain usage is key - :)

Also - those who may not have started formal music education at an early age may perceive music very differently that those who did do to the physiological aspects mentioned. While it's clear that one does not have to have a formal, early-age music education to learn or be able to be a musician, the way in which music is process and interpreted in the brains may very well be quite different.

Understanding that there is this co-mingling of the hemispheres can alter the way one thinks of, teaches, learns and performs music.

All that said - the academic side of music is still very much the same as the academic side of any skill. There are rules, methods and facts associated that are not meant to negate the emotional/spiritual aspect, rather to enhance the rational interpretation and execution of it.
 
My dear friend and the most important teacher I ever had, Charlie Banacos died yesterda of cancer. My heart is broken. I will miss this great musician and friend. It is hard to imagine that I can never again hear Charlie's high tenor voice yelling into the tape machine, HEEYYYYY JEFF! WHAT'S HAPPENIN' MAN! Oh my God! I will miss him.

I've noticed a trend to get back to chatting over here. In Charlie's memory, let's cut out all the chatter and start talking about music again because I am already noticing a deviation away from the subject. This is YOUR thread. Get back to music, the pursuit of it, the learning of it, and share musical ideas with each other even while I am touring and can't hang with you guys as much as I would like. Some guys are tallking but not about music.

Learn music like Charlie taught! Rest in Peace Charlie because another like you won't come along for another century.



Jeff
 
Hey Jeff, please accept my heartfelt condolences. Back on topic. In an effort to try revitalize my creativity i'm searching for music to transcribe or just listen to and have taken to listening to pianists. I bought Brian Bromberg's Upside Downside album and George Duke's playing on that totally blows me away. I've also been enamoured with Herbie Hancock's playing on Jaco's first album. Can anyone suggest any other great pianists who's lines or melodies would translate well to bass? And on the subject of transcribing(i've always just copied things by ear and memorized them in the process) do you make a chord chart in order to analyze the relationships between what you're transcribing and the chord sequence?
 
Definitely not to argue - but the view you pose is not necessarily 'completely alternate' - or at least it does not have to compete with the scientific or historic views previously stated.

]

Too true TZER and a great sentiment! I think there is much room for these view points to meet in the middle and I greatly appreciate the great dialogue. There is much truth and beauty in the blending of science, art and instinct.

I do think this is not totally OT because much of this thread and the earlier thread, has been about arguments between the "study music academically crowd" and the "instinctual musician" crowd. Jeff is clearly making an argument that everyone should study music academically and many vehemently disagree, which I think is their loss. As someone who took piano lessons from age 6-15, and studied upright bass from 16-23 in a classical setting, I am naturally all for studying academically. Does academic study make you a great rock player. Heck no! Only experience adds that.
I think that the time for instinct is when we are performing. Obviously you don't have time to think about the tones in a d7+9 chord in time. The only way anyone will every play something cool over that chord, is if they have studied it academically, to the point where their ears and fingers simply know what to do when they see/hear it on the gig.

Also, I came across an amazing line in another thread. It was about how Gene Simmons called in Jimmy Haslip of all people to record a Kiss album, because he was so torn up over being dumped by Diana Ross that he didn't want to play.
Why was Jimmy able to sit in and record a rock album with a metal band? Because he knows music inside and out.
I just thought this was a cool story that illustrated Jeff's point that all styles of music will be more accessible and easier to learn, once jazz has been studied.
Could Gene Simmons have done the reverse, and recorded a Yellowjacket's album? I don't think so!

(Certainly no disrespect intended for Gene Simmons, the man is a rock icon)
 
Why was Jimmy able to sit in and record a rock album with a metal band? Because he knows music inside and out.
I just thought this was a cool story that illustrated Jeff's point that all styles of music will be more accessible and easier to learn, once jazz has been studied.
Could Gene Simmons have done the reverse, and recorded a Yellowjacket's album? I don't think so!

(Certainly no disrespect intended for Gene Simmons, the man is a rock icon)

Cool story but not all of it, Jimmy knows he played on one track for definite, Danger, that one he remembers.LOL he reckons maybe five in total, can't be sure or can't tell, LOL it was rock album that any session rock player could do...nothing to do with jazz training. Other players were used as well if i remember correctly, I think the album was Creatures of the Night.:bassist:
 
Cool story but not all of it, Jimmy knows he played on one track for definite, Danger, that one he remembers.LOL he reckons maybe five in total, can't be sure or can't tell, LOL it was rock album that any session rock player could do...nothing to do with jazz training. Other players were used as well if i remember correctly, I think the album was Creatures of the Night.:bassist:

Thanks for the correction, I am reported 2nd hand what others reported.
Nevertheless, Generally speaking, as a rule, I don't know of, nor can think of, any session players who haven't studied music on some level. Sure, playing "Danger" doesn't require you to be a jazz genius like Jimmy or Jeff B, but you do have to know music! You DO have to be a tremendous reader to be a working session player. I can tell you that to be a session player here in the Nashville, the bar is so high, that only the best make it. Many of them seem to have jazz degrees from North Texas or similar. Now they probably don't get to play much jazz here in Nashvegas, but I think you see my point and I know it isn't different in New York, LA or Chicago.
Is your point that one can be successful as a session player in these modern times without knowing music?
 
Cool story but not all of it, Jimmy knows he played on one track for definite, Danger, that one he remembers.LOL he reckons maybe five in total, can't be sure or can't tell, LOL it was rock album that any session rock player could do...nothing to do with jazz training. Other players were used as well if i remember correctly, I think the album was Creatures of the Night.:bassist:

You are correct on all counts.
 
Is your point that one can be successful as a session player in these modern times without knowing music?

Not a session player that i know that works independently will succeed without it, you have to know music. Some producers have favorite players and will give them some slack as a rule, but with me, the clock is running when i go in, so the quicker i get the job done the better for all. I see what your getting at, but i agree with Jeff, music gets you any gig not just a genre gig.:cool:
 
Not a session player that i know that works independently will succeed without it, you have to know music. Some producers have favorite players and will give them some slack as a rule, but with me, the clock is running when i go in, so the quicker i get the job done the better for all. I see what your getting at, but i agree with Jeff, music gets you any gig not just a genre gig.:cool:

+1 to that! Knowing music is the key, all else flows from there. I also agree with Jeff that by studying the most challenging music possible, such as Jazz or Classical, that it will make everything that pays the bills ever so much easier to get under the fingers.
 
+1 to that! Knowing music is the key, all else flows from there. I also agree with Jeff that by studying the most challenging music possible, such as Jazz or Classical, that it will make everything that pays the bills ever so much easier to get under the fingers.

LOL not always sometimes you have to play "stupid" to fit in with the stupid people around you..LOL;)
 
For the record, the Jimmy Haslip story was posted by engedi1 - somehow I got the credit, however.

And the phrases "music education" and "Gene Simmons" simply don't belong in the same paragraph, let alone the same sentence. But he'd probably say that about himself, so I am not too concerned about accusing Gene of not being a scholarly musician.

Here's a story from my past where my music training got me the gig even though the player I was up against could pin my ears back with his chops.

It was 1983 (or 84) and I was auditioning for my high school jazz bands. There were only four bass players going out for two bands. One of the players going out was not in the school's music program, however. He was a self-taught bass player who decided he wanted in on the jazz band thing. We were out in the hall waiting our turn to go in and do our thing and we were all chatting and trading licks. Well this dude had fingers! Man! He could tear that bass up!! Slap 'n pop - shredding - groove for miles - funky as it gets!

He goes in before me...

Director: "Take 'How High the Moon' from the top..."

Well this guy says, "I can't read, but if you give me a recording, I can learn it."

The director says, "Sorry, man. You have to be able to read to be in these bands. Do you want to give it a try?"

"Naw, man... Can't you give me a recording? I'll blow you away! I'll listen to it right here and play it right now..."

"Sorry - you have to be able to read. Try again next year."

He came out of the band room rather peeved to say the least. He knew he could "out play" all of us, but couldn't get past step one of the audition.

I went in and nailed my parts. I did so well and improved so much over my freshmen year audition when I'd only been playing EB for 4 months that the director was stunned. I even out played the Junior in all areas - reading, comping, improvising, everything - BUT since the he had a good reputation, history with the director and the 2nd band 1st chair last year and in spite of the fact that I auditioned better than he did, HE got awarded the 2nd chair in the #1 band and I was awarded the 1st chair in the 2nd band and made section leader of the rhythm section.

Some say I got shafted and that I should have gotten into the #1 band as 2nd chair and the Junior should have kept his 1st chair, 2nd band spot - me included since I worked my tail off and auditioned better than the other guy - but there is something to be said for having a good reputation and a personal relationship with the director... No, I'm not bitter...

Bottom line, however - being able to read, practicing HARD and rising to the challenge is where it's at, baby!

But man, that other dude could PLAY!! I wonder where he is today?
 
My dear friend and the most important teacher I ever had, Charlie Banacos died yesterda of cancer. My heart is broken. I will miss this great musician and friend. It is hard to imagine that I can never again hear Charlie's high tenor voice yelling into the tape machine, HEEYYYYY JEFF! WHAT'S HAPPENIN' MAN! Oh my God! I will miss him.

I've noticed a trend to get back to chatting over here. In Charlie's memory, let's cut out all the chatter and start talking about music again because I am already noticing a deviation away from the subject. This is YOUR thread. Get back to music, the pursuit of it, the learning of it, and share musical ideas with each other even while I am touring and can't hang with you guys as much as I would like. Some guys are tallking but not about music.

Learn music like Charlie taught! Rest in Peace Charlie because another like you won't come along for another century.



Jeff
sorry to hear about your friend.....
 
Bottom line, however - being able to read, practicing HARD and rising to the challenge is where it's at, baby!

But man, that other dude could PLAY!! I wonder where he is today?

+1 its about being fit for purpose not being the best.
If your strong at what you do you get "trusted" with projects, bands and players that weaker because they know you have it in you to get the job done.

Now in a session enviroment that can suck to see a weaker player used on "pop" tracks and commercial material that will chart, get air play and earn more money because of the mass exposure it will get as a "commercial success". You on the other hand work on projects that are hard, sometimes tricky, gets none of the access to play lists, but is loved by all in the know... so have played on a "critical acclaim" album.....critical acclaim don't pay bills, but sometimes being stupid does.;)
 
...You on the other hand work on projects that are hard, sometimes tricky, gets none of the access to play lists, but is loved by all in the know... so have played on a "critical acclaim" album.....critical acclaim don't pay bills, but sometimes being stupid does.;)

This is another place where the division between academia and art or 'show' vs. 'go' is clear.

Mentioning Gene Simmons - again, no one (himself included) is holding him up as an example of a scholarly musician but as far as someone who knows how to put on a show, that's quite a different story and has little to nothing to do with being a skilled musician.

If it's $$ you are after, I am sure if you are 1st call in NY or LA, you're earning $$, but as for the rest of us schooled players, probably not so much. But if you have a great look, can hack the part and are in the right place at the right time, you can possibly get rich playing.

It all comes down to your expectation of return on your investment. If you expect to get rich, you need to focus on what pays. If you expect to be enriched, you need to focus on what enriches.

"The Industry" glamorizes musicians and creates what I think is a false expectation of 'riches' if you become a musician. You can probably have a very fulfilling and rich life and career as a musician and never be known by the masses or be seen on MTV. Many scholarly/academic pursuits pay off in enriching lives, not necessarily back accounts.
 
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