Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

[Jim Campbell]

Makes you wonder how jazz musicians learned to play jazz before anyone knew what jazz was, much less taught it.

Someone, somewhere, was the first guy to play jazz. Maybe your band can be the first ones to play your type of music. The two of you were are academic can put your brains together, come up with something, then let the other two guys who are self taught lay their own style on top of it and make it unique.

Then 100 years from now, Jeff's great, great grandson will be on here telling everyone to play by your rules.

That's the beauty of music. It changes. Some people play compositions written hundreds of years ago, and some people invent new genres. Take rap, for example. Personal preferences aside, it is now considered a legitimate genre. When it first started it was a guy beat boxing while some recited what amounted to street poetry.

To me, that's fantastic.

i believe most would have learned from military or marching bands,and the form evolved as influences from the blues were added......the form is not that old......check out louis armstrongs hot fives/sevens,those new orleans stride guys......dixieland,ragtime,swing,bop,bebop,modal, free......

 

[aidan784]

I agree chad, it's awesome... And that's jeff's point, art is anything, it's completely subjective, that's great... He just believes one academic route is better than another, or to rephrase, THE academic route is better than any other, and i agree with that... There's the point being made that it's better to be taught a style but i believe differently i think, you could listen to one album or a few albums that are 'said style', learn all the basslines and be almost capable or passable at playing that style, hence learning that style almost in the week between your academic lessons, hence it's hardly worth paying for, obviously IMO... I've only really done the point i'm making with ska or two tone basslines (i'm english ) but i agree with jeff's point, most other styles can be played without much knowledge played other than jazz, in my case mostly major or minor arpeggios to play almost well, i've not been playing long haha...

 

[tZer]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's awesome too! It's a great band - great players and there's plenty of opportunity to expand on the 'norm' or add to the 'rules'.

My point is that there are almost always those who can't see why digging into the minutia matters - and understandable so when you consider how many of the 'greats' were 'by ear' players. But DO NOT ask me to identify who those 'by ear' player are!!

 

[chadhargis]

I agree that the "science" is as important as the "art" and the two are different.

A good example of this is knowing how to drive a manual transmission car. When I got my first manual transmission car, I had no trouble jumping in and driving it. Stalled it a couple of times, then I was off and running. The reason I could do this is because I'd put a clutch in a car before and KNEW what the clutch pedal was doing. In order to drive the car, I just had to apply my knowledge and develop some muscle memory. I knew the "mechanics". My wife, on the other had, struggled to learn to drive a manual, because she was operating solely in a mode of "push the pedal down, put it in gear, let it out slow". She didn't know the "why" or "what" she was doing. If the car moved forward, that's all that mattered.

 

[aidan784]

Haha exactly! Because basically when it comes to it a lot of those 'by ear' players they do stick completely to 'the rules' even if they don't know it... How many players in rock or blues or metal etc... stick to the pentatonic scale without knowing it... Even from an inexperienced player like me

 

[aidan784]

That's a similar comparison to what jeff made a few years ago about fretless bass in the '98 bass player article, it was something similar to 'a manual that teaches you how to steer a car, if you steer a car enough, you know how to steer a car'... Even jaco, who jeff credits to having made the fretless his own, practiced on a fretted bass himself, and credited to 'just playing the same as where the frets are on a fretted bass' which is where jeff's points are completely validated where i am concerned, i may be wrong, but i will still agree that 'fretless' lessons, and especially paying for them, are invalid...

 

[JoeBassGuy17]

You wouldn’t necessarily associate being able to read with playing in a punk band, have you drawn on it at all?

"With songs like ‘Ill in the Head’ (from the album Fresh Fruit For Rotting Vegetables) where the interweaving parts required tight arrangement, an understanding of musical theory is always useful. Knowing the rules of music is not only important when you want to change the feel of a song but also when you want to go against musical convention and break those rules."

Factual knowledge of music is important to give yourself the knowledge to express yourself artistically.

Olivier Messiaen was quoted by the bassist Anthony Jackson saying "Technique is the means by which the heart can fly freely". I interpret it as the technical knowledge of music is the means that one's own creativity can be expressed.

 

[aidan784]

Thanks joe. Fair point , everything can be done artistically but again understanding comes into it.... If you could choose to be an artist or musician why would you choose not to understand what you are doing... After decades of learning especially...

 

[Bass4Gsus]

But that's my next question. When would you use these modes. Only so much you can cover in a 30 minute lesson.

That is the million dollar question. When and why. Everyone explains what modes are, but how do we as bassist's use them and when.

I am trusting that with enough practice and study, a light will go on, beyond the mere mechanics of it.

 

[aidan784]

That's jeff's point, modes or scales only suggest harmony, they don't define it, although D dorian is correct over dmin7 in the key of C, despite d e f g a b c definining D dorian, only d f a c, truly defines dmin7, its an over simplified point on my part i think but that's basically jeff's point, chord tones are perfect academically... Chip in if im wrong jeff...

 

[Bass4Gsus]

Can anyone recommend a good book or web site that covers music theory? There are tons of them, but I want the "good stuff", as Jeff puts it. A "Music for Dummies" would be wonderful. .

All About Music Theory by Mark Harrison, Hal Leonard. The is the first book that pulled it all together for me, and filled in what I was missing (except for the why and when of modes). I have had others which were no more than tables, charts and scales, that are more helpful now that I understand more.

I had a great teacher, better than I realized at the time, but there was no book and I thought no structure, and was a bit lost in all the info. This book pulled it all together for me. Still need work and study, but I feel there is progress, I am learning.

I also bough The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine based on endorsements here, but just starting to study it.

 

[Bass4Gsus]

That's jeff's point, modes or scales only suggest harmony, they don't define it, although D dorian is correct over dmin7 in the key of C, despite d e f g a b c definining D dorian, only d f a c, truly defines dmin7, its an over simplified point on my part i think but that's basically jeff's point, chord tones are perfect academically... Chip in if im wrong jeff...

It seems to me that in some way modes are the cord tone (overly simplified). I learned the scales, then I learned how cords are constructed, and the cord tones are the starting point for my bass lines. I know now much more on how it works together and the relationships.

When I started to study So What, after the second bar of
Dm7 I ran out of idea's, I realized I was still missing alot of understanding.

Generally speaking should we just be focused on the cord tones. (with passing, approach, etc as part of the mix)? And when appropriate apply the modes as they work with the scale and against the cord? Or will this make more sense as I get into the Jazz Theory Book, and just have patience.

If I sound confused, I am. The more I learn the less I know.

 

[aidan784]

I completely understand, i know little about jazz theory... But if you think about 'so what' (bear in mind it was my first jazz purchase and i again know little about jazz) then it's modal jazz, there is 2 chord changes esentially throughout, Dmin7 and Ebmin7, its hardly the point jeff's making about playing over changes but i understand from a beginner's point of view...

 

[minus40]

I came straight out of the classical world, apprenticed in rock and then went into jazz studies. Frankly, it was no problem to adjust to the jazz world because everybody that I was hanging with wanted to learn how to play in this broad style.

I am curious when you believe your clasical training on the violin became musically meaningful and what did that training look like. My question has to do with the tonal and technical challenges of the violin, and by extension the double bass. In other words, it takes a serious bit of work just to get the starting gate with the violin. Perhaps learning along with the piano was the stradegy? Would you redesign any of that education and if so,what might it look like? I may be off topic forum wise here but I know you are surrounded by very good double bassists at PSM.
thanks Jeff - Don S

 

[Billnc]

See, that's it. Modes in and of themselves are very easy to explain and understand. Using them to play through changes just doesn't seem to work to make music for most people. The only explanation ever given is a certain number of notes in one octave. End of story or class. Add chord tones to the explanation, notes to target and things make moe sense. This is also more work.

 

[Roy Vogt]

The New Orleans players took Brass Band music and specifically Marches used in Parade and Funeral Processions and started "Jazzing Up" the Melody-improvising around it.
In the case of our instrument, Pops Foster was one of the first to use the String Bass, primarily relegated to String Bands and play some of the lines that Tuba players had played, dropping bowing in favor of "plucking" and even "slapping" the instrument.
Pianists like Jelly Roll Morton and Scott Joplin were introducing syncopations into piano Rags.
At some point, this evolved into Dixieland Jazz, and then some of those early players moved through the US to places like Kansas City and started Big Bands (Fletcher Henderson, Count Basie, on down to Paul Whiteman's Orchestra-the "smooth Jazz" of it's time).
This evolved into the dominant form of Popular Music from the 1920s-1940s.
The economic and social disruption caused by World War II and the Musician's Union Strike coupled with musicians wanting to explore new territory led to Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie and others pioneering "Bebop". Louis Armstrong, instrumental in the development of early Jazz, called it "Chinese Music". Other players and critics called it "anti-Jazz".
Enter Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Dave Brubeck, Jerry Mulligan and "Modal" and "Cool School" styles. Players, fans and critics think that Coltrane can't play at all when he initially introduces "sheets" of sound playing.
Miles plugs in.....his 60s bands contain Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Joe Zawinul, Wayne Shorter, John McLaughlin and the founding fathers of the Fusion Movement. Players and critics call it "anti-Jazz" and "sellout music". Players combine musical influences from Coltrane's "sheets of sound" and Miles modal experiments with Hendrix and Sly Stones Rock and Funk Electric Instrumentation to create Fusion.
This is all refuted in the 80's by Wynton Marsalis.... New traditionalism and the return of the Great American Songbook as a resource for players on CD and live performance returns.
I could go on....What has always happened is that Music and most Art combines Thesis and Antithesis to create Synthesis.
I personally think everyone should listen to the entire Smithsonian Collection of Classic Jazz at least once in their lives-I had it on vinyl and most University and Public Libraries should have it somewhere.
It's interesting and kind of poignant that we're debating/talking about this evolution on a forum for an instrument that Mainstream Music and Jazz Education didn't believe was a real instrument in both Jeff's and my lifetimes.

 

[Plissken]

Jeff or anyone else:

Can you explain alternate tunings to me and why some people use them? I see this thing called drop tuning or drop D and I wonder why they would want to use alternate tunings. I don't say this in a condescending manner, I just don't understand the need to use alternate tunings (beginner here). If they should be used, when?

Jeff, I like the part at 0:50

 

[Toronto Bassist]

Miles plugs in.....his 60s bands contain Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Joe Zawinul, Wayne Shorter, John McLaughlin and the founding fathers of the Fusion Movement. Players and critics call it "anti-Jazz" and "sellout music".

It's funny, because it's because of fusion that I got into jazz. I used to read interviews with Larry Coryell, John McLaughlin and the like, and they would always mention guys like Miles Davis, Charles Mingus, Duke Ellington. So I figured if those guys liked that stuff, then it must be good.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Modes can be heard/used in Modal Tunes and Fusion style "vamp tunes". I liken the chord tones to the framing of a house. The modes/chord scales are the sheet rock-they fill in the framing gaps, but can't hold up a roof by themselves. The sheet rock is a little boring after a while until you introduce color in the form of chromatic notes (the Greek word for color is "chroma". Chromatics are like painting the house.
So-in order of importance, it's chord tones/chord scales/chromatics. The latter two are somewhat interchangeable as to style-modes in Modal Jazz and Fusion-chromatics in BeBop and Great American Songbook based Jazz.

 

[John Wentzien]

Yep=
I had to select "Tuba" as my main instrument to get into school... electric bass was not even on the list..