Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

[JeffBerlin]

Bass4Gsus - I am beginning to understand, but one question. You seem to imply that scales are not important, but don't the cords and the quality of the cords come from scales.

(JEFF) Yes! And I didn't say that scales weren't important. I said that they were over-taught and non-specific.

Yes! Chords come from scales. But, the idea is use and practicality, not source! Rock comes from jazz and jazz probably comes from blues. But each style contains its own importance and source isn't the point. Neither is source important with academica. It just has to be content rich to be valid.

Bass4Gsus - As to metronome. I do find it helpful in limited use, but I have been focusing on learning while practicing and really going slow, out of time, and thinking and hearing. And also practicing or rehearsing at a slow tempo, and finding real improvement, so even though agreement may not be 100%, you still have a profound effect.

Great thread.

JEFF - Thank you!

 

[JeffBerlin]

I am just curious as to why you didn't quote the rest of the post I made, that one small section was a question and answer from an interview with Klaus from a writer at Bass Guitar Magazine. I posted it along with the quote from Messiaen to show that I am in agreement with you that the factual knowledge of music is separated from art, but that through knowledge of music, one can better communicate and express themselves, whether it be in any style of music.

I am currently attending college thanks to grants and I hope to find a way financially to get myself to the Players School. If only there was a one week intensive during the summer

No reason! I just thought that this comment sparked the most interest in me.

 

[Plissken]

In my skmming of part 2 of the thread, I kept seeing a reference to a chord tones book. What's the exact title?

Also, what specific trombone books would you recommend picking up as an alternative to studying something like the Bach Cello Suites?

 

[JeffBerlin]

+1

Though I'd prefer a one on one lesson with Mr. Berlin, I'd gladly pay for video clips full of solid factual music information

I am really considering doing this! What I intend to do is to simply explain some principles of music that make sense off of the bass, and try to show that it takes musicianship and practice time to get them onto the bass.

The ability to play is always preceeded by the desire to find out how! I intend to show some exercises that will not be applicable to any gig (because exercises aren't meant to be applied to a live playing situation, even if you find a way to do it) but which will boost your ability to play music that you are hearing, but can't get out of your instruments, because you may not know what the notes are.

 

[Roy Vogt]

I am really considering doing this! What I intend to do is to simply explain some principles of music that make sense off of the bass, and try to show that it takes musicianship and practice time to get them onto the bass.

The ability to play is always preceeded by the desire to find out how! I intend to show some exercises that will not be applicable to any gig (because exercises aren't meant to be applied to a live playing situation, even if you find a way to do it) but which will boost your ability to play music that you are hearing, but can't get out of your instruments, because you may not know what the notes are.

This would work on so many levels-not the least of which would be really getting the word out there about PSOM and attracting students. I'd be all over that....

 

[chadhargis]

I bought Jeff's PSoM video where he explains some of this beliefs and teaching methods. Very interesting. Actually, through a slip of the finger, I ended up ordering two of them, so I have one still shrink wrapped if anyone is interested in it.

It was really good to hear Jeff verbally explain some of what we've seen him write here. Well worth the hour and a half to watch it.

On the subject of scales. I'm working on learning the scale modes as two octaves across the neck starting on the B string. I understand that each mode starts on a different interval of the scale. I'm also using them to help learn the notes in each scale and where they are on the fretboard.

What I don't understand is why you would use these modes? Could you not simply use the standard scale when playing?

I'm sure eventually the answer will reveal itself to me, but I am one of those people who has to know "why". Once I know why and when to apply them, I can then pay closer attention to desired use while I'm practicing.

I'm a firm believer of beginning with the end in mind. If you don't know where you're going, you'll never get there.

 

[Eminentbass]

What I don't understand is why you would use these modes? Could you not simply use the standard scale when playing?

I'm sure eventually the answer will reveal itself to me, but I am one of those people who has to know "why". Once I know why and when to apply them, I can then pay closer attention to desired use while I'm practicing.

I'm a firm believer of beginning with the end in mind. If you don't know where you're going, you'll never get there.

I think the most useful purpose of the modes is that they define the chord function of the specific scale degrees in a key e.g. if you take the mixolydian(built off of V in the major scale), it contains 1,3,5 and b7, making the chord built off of that mode a dominant 7th.

If you think of the modes as individual scales then they each state what the chord derived from them will be in a specific key. The dorian has a minor tonality, therefore that chord would be a minor. This all helps with understanding number charts if you're not working with notation or a chord chart.

As far as improvisation goes, I'm not sure how relevant it is to think in individual modes because then you're taking the tonic scale and dividing it up into seven different ones which to me seems like unnecessarily complicating things.

One exercise I'm doing is taking a major scale starting on the tonic, playing the arpeggio, then moving to the next scale degree and playing the arpeggio defined by that mode, doing this through all notes of the major scale. It all helps to indentify and isolate the notes and chord tones in a specific key so that when I play, I'm not just looking at a bunch of frets and dots on the neck. The only time I can think of consciously thinking modes while playing is when doing a jam where vamping on ii and V.

Wow, it's hard to explain this stuff in text, so my apologies to you and to Jeff if I've just confused the issue more.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Wow, it's hard to explain this stuff in text, so my apologies to you and to Jeff if I've just confused the issue more.

I think you done well, i see modes as the white notes on the piano, so start any where and and play a series of whote notes in alphabetic order and you have modes, but not the scales, for that you need the black notes.

go to a piano start on a note, i'll go E and play them
E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G and so on
In that sequence you have all 7 modes and more important their interval order. Again the white keys and black keys on a piano show this in it design of groups of 3 and 2 black keys againt the white. Its when we interact these black and white keys, so in realty we interact intervals we end up with scales, chord tones etc that their beauty shines through.

p.s.
in music we do not always see the end, we need leaps of faith to get past a teaching for it to become apparant latter.

 

[chadhargis]

p.s. in music we do not always see the end, we need leaps of faith to get past a teaching for it to become apparant latter.

Reminds me of a corporate training video I've shown several times. It has John Houseman telling you to:

"Tolerate a little ambiguity"

I have a hard time with that sometimes. I prefer everything to have a logical flow.

 

[Eminentbass]

That made me laugh, although I'm not sure why.

I'm gonna paraphrase Jeff(possibly badly), but along the lines of practice the facts of music and she will slowly give up her secrets.

Sometimes we have to trust the facts presented to us and then one day that lightbulb moment happens and it makes perfect sense.

 

[aidan784]

To everyone that received jeff's chord tone article from commreman (thanks again) i was curious as to how people have been practicing them... I'm taking it one chord type at a time so currently i have C, G, D and Amaj7 written out, are people doing it this way or doing one key at a time? And i was wondering how long people are practicing them for before moving on and how much time reviewing you do? cheers fellas...

 

[chadhargis]

Back on the topic of modes, I printed out 12 copies of my mode "homework" my teacher gave me. I then wrote out the notes for all seven modes in each scale.

The notes are all the same, it's just a different starting and ending position. Trying to break that down logically, the only thing I could come up with is it must be tied to the lowest and highest notes in a piece of music.

It's obviously possible for a song to be in the key of...say...C and not start on end on a C note. What if the lowest note in the song is a D and the highest is 2 D's above. Then you can play in that "mode" and not have to move your hand position as much, allowing you to use economy of motion.

Am I anywhere close to being on base?

 

[chadhargis]

So you're saying in the key of C to circle C-E-G as the triad (the 1,3,5)? Which brings me back to why you need modes. It's the same triad in each mode, fingering is simply changed.

That's what's confusing me. Why change how you finger things?

 

[chadhargis]

Each mode has a different triad, but I think you know that.

Uh...no. I didn't know that.

We haven't started into chords yet. I'm on in my second half hour lesson. Only so much you can do in a half hour. What I'm tying to do is figure how how to make music using these "modes". Seven modes for each of the 12 keys.

I have already learned to recognize the sound of the major scale intervals and I can listen to music, and pick out where to start. As long as the song stays in the major scale or has very few accidentals, I can play it in a rather rudimentary manner. From what I know about chord tones, I can hope back and forth between them, and make a quasi bass line.

So now I have one key...of say...C, and I now have 7 ways or "modes" to play within that same key. Using the standard scale "pattern", I can play all the same notes, so what is special about a mode?

I just simply don't have the level of knowledge to understand it right now, and it's bugging me three ways to Sunday.

Even though I've been given explanations, I don't know enough to understand the explanations.

I knew learning to play would have it's frustrations, and I'm prepared to just wait and see what becomes of things.

Man, I wish I had the time off work and the money to attend that PSoM one week course in March. Have 8 hours a day devoted to learning for a solid week would be worth every red cent. I figured that will be equal to about a year and a half of lessons.

 

[Billnc]

If you've done C major just for the heck of it play a this C E G Bb then C D E F G A Bb.
That's C mixolydian. Play C major again then C mixolydian. In a nutshell THAT is what is significant about the modes one has a b7 the other a major 7th. Others have different alterations of the notes in relation to their starting note.

I do firmly believe the great benefit is just worrying about the chords for now. Accept the modes for what they are. (and chords for that matter)

 

[Busc]

This is great stuff you guys have going on here. I have always agreed with what Jeff says as far as what one needs to learn to really improve on the instrument and his playing speaks for itself.I think the way it was communicated/interpreted was misunderstood by a lot of players who thought he was "dissing" their preferred genres of music. Not the case at all.

I dont mean to steal your thunder Jeff with your podcast idea (because I would definately check it out and think you should do it by all means!!) but just wanted to mention to everyone here that one is out there worth checking out by an incredible guitarist and friend of mine who I played many years with here in the Tampa area by the name of Barry Greene. He is an Associate Professor at UNF and the guitar teacher there. He has some great podcats/lessons on things that have been discussed here (I should point out they are on an advanced/intermediate level as far as your theory/harmony educations is concerned) but it is really cool stuff. Type his name on a youtube search and there are samples of some of his playing and various lessons. It is geared toward different ways to approach a solo over various jazz standards that will open up new territory to get us thinking "outside the box" from our regular bag of trick licks. Jeff I anxiously await a podcast so get your ass to work!! LOL

BTW Roy, you met Barry and I many years ago (early 90's) when you played with Mel Tillis at the Strawberry Festivals in Plant City and came to Clearwater at Norm's Place for the Monday night jazz gig we had. You sat in with some of the other guys in the Tillis band and sounded great. You had just finished transcribing that Wooten/Bailey book,we talked shop, and had a fun hang.

I look forward to reading more posts in this thread. Great stuff everyone.

 

[Eminentbass]

Uh...no. I didn't know that.

We haven't started into chords yet. I'm on in my second half hour lesson. Only so much you can do in a half hour. What I'm tying to do is figure how how to make music using these "modes". Seven modes for each of the 12 keys.

I have already learned to recognize the sound of the major scale intervals and I can listen to music, and pick out where to start. As long as the song stays in the major scale or has very few accidentals, I can play it in a rather rudimentary manner. From what I know about chord tones, I can hope back and forth between them, and make a quasi bass line.

So now I have one key...of say...C, and I now have 7 ways or "modes" to play within that same key. Using the standard scale "pattern", I can play all the same notes, so what is special about a mode?

I just simply don't have the level of knowledge to understand it right now, and it's bugging me three ways to Sunday.

Even though I've been given explanations, I don't know enough to understand the explanations.

I knew learning to play would have it's frustrations, and I'm prepared to just wait and see what becomes of things.

Man, I wish I had the time off work and the money to attend that PSoM one week course in March. Have 8 hours a day devoted to learning for a solid week would be worth every red cent. I figured that will be equal to about a year and a half of lessons.

Hey there, I'm sorry if my explanation was too jargon heavy. I think what I was trying to get at in one way is that a lot of music(rock in any case) has it's generic chord sequences that you will find repeating themselves in different songs.

The important thing about this is that if you think of each mode as a scale, then it will have a 1, 3(or b3) and 5 which will determine the nature of the chord that is derived from it. So this will dictate what chords are built off of the different points in scale(in the generic, recurring instances).

So, in one key you've got seven chords to choose from to create a chord sequence when dealing with music that stays within that key. Not to say that you've only got seven to choose from but once you're familiar with these then you'll see when deviations occur and probably pull your hair out trying to figure those out

I don't know if I can say I've thought modes when making music but I've definitely observed the modes at work in music I've played.

 

[chadhargis]

I think was is confusing me is this info I found on a website, that seems to go hand in hand with what my teacher told me:

A mode is collection of notes from a parent scale, and emphasized starting at a particular note from the parent scale.

So what are the names of the modes for the C major scale and how are they played:

* Ionian: C · D · E · F · G · A · B · C
* Dorian: D · E · F · G · A · B · C · D
* Phrygian: E · F · G · A · B · C · D · E
* Lydian: F · G · A · B · C · D · E · F
* Mixolydian: G · A · B · C · D · E · F · G
* Aeolian: A · B · C · D · E · F · G · A
* Locrian: B · C · D · E · F · G · A · B

As you can see, there are no sharps or flats tossed into the C major scale, it's the same 7 notes. No flatted 7th or 5th. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding that a flatted note doesn't necessarily have to be a "b" note. It can be a natural note, just a half step down.

So I'm practicing these modes by starting the Ionian on C, the Dorian on B, Phrygian on E...etc. The fingerings have to change, because the starting point on the fretboard changes. What is driving me batty is why not just work with the Ionian and play all the notes from there?

There has to be a logic behind it. I mean, you could play any scale entirely on one string, but it would mean LOTS of hand movement up and down the neck and you wouldn't be able to play very fast. But, it could be done. The reason I bought a five string bass is so I could have two complete octaves in one hand position. It just made sense to me. Logic is both my misery and my happiness. When I can find it, I'm happy, when I can't I'm miserable.

 

[Eminentbass]

Yeah, there aren't flattened notes in the sense of the key but the flats are used to describe how the mode differs from the major scale in form or shape. The definition that worked for me was that a mode is a displaced scale. Simply starting and ending on one of the scale notes other than the root.

Thinking of each mode separately enables you to spell chords off of them. The thing that is frustrating you may very well be the reason that modes can seem over-emphasized. It seems like a lot of work to suddenly start thinking seven different scales while playing in one key.

I probably spent more time than I should've practising each mode and trying to build speed when I can't say that I've used them as individual scales while playing. And when I tried, it sounded like exercises.

 

[Schlyder]

OK you have an understanding of the major scale and the 12 keys. Don't worry so much about the modes yet, just know they are related to the major scale, and chords derived from the major scale, for now.
What you need to get a good understanding is how and where chords come from, and how they relate. You want to learn about the Harmonized Major Scale. That will teach you how some of the main chord families are created.
OK, read up on the HARMONIZED MAJOR SCALE. I think that will explain some things you are not getting. Just quit worrying about the modes for now. You will understand them better when you understand THE HARMONIZED MAJOR SCALE. And where the chords families come from. From the Major scale we get chord families Major 7th,
Minor 7th, Major7#11, Dominant 7th, Minor7b5 The modes are related to these, which are related to the Major scale. Which is what most of our western 12 tone system is built around. Worrying about the modes and how to use them will just confuse you at this point. Just worry about the Major key for now.