Jeff Berlin discussing music education part 3

[chadhargis]

A picture is worth a 1000 words.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

We just hit 420 posts.

I just thought I'd make us pass that little number up before this thread got out of hand.

 

[Roy Vogt]

To jump in on the modes discussion: what is the practical application?

Regarding their use in jazz, I have never really understood it. Can someone return the favor and enlighten me? Or are we best served by sticking to chord tones? Unless you are playing So What, what good does knowing the dorian mode serve you in a jazz context?

In a ii-V-I progression, one solution is to think of the chord voicings, say these:
Dm7 (D-F-A-C) G7 (G-B-D-F) and Cmaj7 (C-E-G-B)
Now for the sake of demonstration I'll add the remaining scale tones and fill in the blanks, non chord tones will be lower case.
Dm7 (D-e-F-g-A-b-C-D) G7 (G-a-B-c-D-e-F-G) Cmaj7 (C-d-E-f-G-a-B-C).
Those are the three modal scales that can be used over that ii-V-I progression. What stumps people with extensive Classical Theory backgrounds is the fact that most Jazz Standards are in more than 1 key center. This is sort of the Jamey Aebersold approach to Chord=Scale (BTW, you can go to Jamey's site at www.jazzbooks.com and download a pdf workbook that outlines his approach). It can work, but I personally like to add chromatic approach tones into the mix as well as respect the alterations (if any) of the 9th, 11th and 13.
When I was first learning Jazz Improv with the late Rich Matteson and Dan Haerle at North Texas State we learned a lot of patterns based on the modes. I liken these Jazz "licks" to learning phrases in a foreign language-Aber Ich kann nur ein bischen Deutsch gesprechen und gelesen . You learn the phrases as a starting point and then let the fact that the human mind is not a perfect filing system morph those Jazz phrases into your own spin on them. I still have some Dorian ii minor phrases Rich taught me in 1974 that show up here and there.
BTW, there's a sore need for a Notation application on Talkbass-how about it you Computer Code Ninjas? Anybody?

 

[Roy Vogt]

Here's a pdf of what I'm talking about. It's a ii-V-I cadence in C. The first example is Chord tones (R-3-5-7). The second example is modes from the Roots (Dorian-Mixolydian-Ionian). The third example is the chord tones with 3rd-7th voiceleading (3-5-R-7). The fourth example is a modal pattern using 3rd-7th voiceleading. The fifth example is introducing one chromatic approach tone and using an arpeggio up to the 9th. The final example is Rich Mattesons' dorian lick. It works over a Dm7 or even a Dm7-G7 ii-V.
Jeez, that was a lot of work! I must really care to share....
BTW, on measure 14 only the first F is an F#-I was in a hurry and didn't put in the natural in the G-B-D-F-A G9 arpeggio. Ditto for the Cs in the D minor 9 chord.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Here's a pdf of what I'm talking about. It's a ii-V-I cadence in C. The first example is Chord tones (R-3-5-7). The second example is modes from the Roots (Dorian-Mixolydian-Ionian). The third example is the chord tones with 3rd-7th voiceleading (3-5-R-7). The fourth example is a modal pattern using 3rd-7th voiceleading. The fifth example is introducing one chromatic approach tone and using an arpeggio up to the 9th. The final example is Rich Mattesons' dorian lick. It works over a Dm7 or even a Dm7-G7 ii-V.
Jeez, that was a lot of work! I must really care to share....
BTW, on measure 14 only the first F is an F#-I was in a hurry and didn't put in the natural in the G-B-D-F-A G9 arpeggio.

Appreciate it Roy! I think I'm gonna transpose some of these patterns into different keys.

If there's one thing in music I would love to master (besides soloing), it would have to be walking lines. I love writing them and playing them but I can't currently play them off the top of my head (my current goal is to be able to walk a jazz blues, hopefully soon).

Do you guys have any tips? I have just been focusing all my practice time on writing out chord tone patterns in all keys and playing them, and looking at some of the lines in Rufus Reid's book. I know the general guidelines for forming walking lines, I just can't seem to pull everything together when I try to play one spontaneously.

Should I be playing these (completely) out of time? I have thought of doing this, sort of making my note choices one by one, but that kind of seems to destroy the whole "spontaneity" thing. As said before, I also write lines to songs but that also seems to mess with the idea of spontaneity.

I currently do not have the time for a teacher (but will be getting one soon). I just don't want my musical progress to be halted.

Oh, and chord tones ftw! I honestly am very annoyed at my last teacher, who I had for a year. He did not teach me like he should have. I wanted knowledge. Example of one of our lessons,

me: "how does soloing through jazz songs work?"

Him: Try the blues scale on this one

He more or less had me read lines out of instructional books, while teaching me a scale or two (those of which I already knew of because of my own research). He never even went over chord tones!!! He was also completely expecting a "performance" every week! Very frustrating looking back, as I knew I was not getting what I should have out of those lessons.

Now I know that the good teachers are hard to come by...And that I shouldn't be afraid to ask great players for help.

/rant

 

[Roy Vogt]

Appreciate it Roy! I think I'm gonna transpose some of these patterns into different keys.

If there's one thing in music I would love to master (besides soloing), it would have to be walking lines. I love writing them and playing them but I can't currently play them off the top of my head (my current goal is to be able to walk a jazz blues, hopefully soon).

Do you guys have any tips? I have just been focusing all my practice time on writing out chord tone patterns in all keys and playing them, and looking at some of the lines in Rufus Reid's book. I know the general guidelines for forming walking lines, I just can't seem to pull everything together when I try to play one spontaneously.

Should I be playing these (completely) out of time? I have thought of doing this, sort of making my note choices one by one, but that kind of seems to destroy the whole "spontaneity" thing. As said before, I also write lines to songs but that also seems to mess with the idea of spontaneity.


/rant

It's somewhat similar to soloing, IMO, in that you need to have a set of "licks" under your fingers. Try this one on Autumn Leaves, All the Things You Are or just a cycle of 4ths:
R-3-5-b5. The b5 will resolve by 1/2 step to the next Root.
Rufus has some great lines in his book. A total sleeper here is Basic Electric Bass Vol. 4 (Basic Jazz Lines and Studies) by Jim Progis and Lucas Drew (University of Miami Publications). Jim is not a bassist but was head of U of M's Arranging Program at the time so the lines are "perfect" from the point of view of an arranger.
Practice anything you need to out of time until you're comfortable with where to go next. Then try playing at various tempos. Band in a Box is great for this because you can type in the chords and see how any pattern or "lick" sounds against a given chord or progression at any tempo you want. They are at www.pgmusic.com
You sound like you're on the right track. The Rufus Reid method was a major part of my learning walking bass on both instruments. He has a great chapter on Blues lines. I sometimes show my students my original (1976 vintage) book-it looks like a NYC phone book that has been in Grand Central Station in a phone booth for 15 years! I literally read the covers off of it.

 

[Roy Vogt]

After reading some of Jeff's posts a while back, I've been practicing inversions of chords and chord tone exercises over the last 2 months and my progress has been tremendous.

I find it much easier now to blow over harder jazz tunes like Giant Steps and Countdown. It's a great way to outline the harmony and find new shapes on the instruments.

In one of the latest Bass Guitar magazines, Janek Gwizdala did a great article on using chord tones on Giant Steps. Basically it's going through the 4 basic chord tones of a chord and linking it to the next closest chord tone of the next chord. This is basically the way I practice jazz tunes now and to me, this seems to go hand to hand with what Jeff advocates.

Anyway, thanks for the contribution Jeff!

+1 Any exercise that has you actively linking and voiceleading from chord change to chord change via the closest chord tone is worth it's weight in gold! You can literally write your own book on how to learn to play on changes with that strategy.
That you've improved so much in 60 days is proof positive that this stuff works. Congrats!

 

[Jim Campbell]

+1 Any exercise that has you actively linking and voiceleading from chord change to chord change via the closest chord tone is worth it's weight in gold! You can literally write your own book on how to learn to play on changes with that strategy.
That you've improved so much in 60 days is proof positive that this stuff works. Congrats!

would there be any kind of rule of thumb as to how often you should aim for one of the weaker chord tones

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I think you done well, i see modes as the white notes on the piano, so start any where and and play a series of whote notes in alphabetic order and you have modes, but not the scales, for that you need the black notes.

go to a piano start on a note, i'll go E and play them
E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G and so on
In that sequence you have all 7 modes and more important their interval order. Again the white keys and black keys on a piano show this in it design of groups of 3 and 2 black keys againt the white. Its when we interact these black and white keys, so in realty we interact intervals we end up with scales, chord tones etc that their beauty shines through.

p.s.
in music we do not always see the end, we need leaps of faith to get past a teaching for it to become apparant latter.

This is really, really misinformed, Fergie. Also, it shouldn't be posted in this thread.

Sorry Jon let me explain better, i don't really like to get to involved with modes till all else has been understood. For me modes come in towards the end of music theory as a "twist in the plot" using scales as learnt at the start of music theory. Modes can be an un-neccesary distraction if introduced to early in my opinion.

What i am saying is that the 7 modes are represented by the white keys on the piano
C-C is Ionian
D-D is Dorian
E-E is Phrygian and so on. And sequence of eight alphabetical notes is a mode. so if we write out the Alphabet as
A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G etc we have the white notes on the piano and in there the seven modes. As explained C-C is a mode (ionian) as is F-F (Lydian) and so on.
First off most new player don't realise that a fretboard is all semitones, they think E-F and B-C is a tone, but they are not they are semi-tones.
Since we need to understand intervals in music, it is the intervals that define scales, therefore modes, therefore chords.
The interval of E-F and B-C are defined on a piano, they are the positions of where the black keys are missing.
The black keys are not one for one to a white key, so the two and three grouping that black keys are in shows intervals B-C and E-F. these represent the two semi-tones required in scales and modes.
Scales and modes are made up of the intervals that comprise two semi-tones and five tones, so that is seven intervals in between eight notes ( therefore a scale).
The confusion for many is that the intervals stay in the same place, it is the starting note that changes so the relation to the interval changes not the position of that interval.
So an Ionian has the intervals of T-T-S-T-T-T-S (T=tone S=semitone) and an Aeolian has T-S-T T-S-T-T.
It is the order of the intervals as defined by the starting note in relation to the use that changes, not the intervals, they as we see on the piano are fixed.

Sorry for any confusion, but i agree with Jeff that this side is un-necessary when learning, it leads to confusion and is a one on one thing with a teacher, not something to be learned on ones own as it takes off in areas not yet relevant.

This post is the example of that, my simple explanation in my previous post as i saw it, was simple and now with this explanation is gets side tracked again. That leap of faith i talked about will make all this apparant when modes comes up much much later in theory, as i like to put it, a twist in the plot, but you have to understand what the plot is ot appreciate the twists.

I hope this explains better what i was saying, and sorry for any confusion.

 

[Eminentbass]

Here's a question for Jeff or Roy. I've been doing an exercise where I start on the tonic, ascend the arpeggio including the 7th, the resolution to the octave introduces the 7th of the next scale degree for which I descend the arpeggio. I do this through all the scale degrees doing the chord tones applicable to each mode up the scale and then descend the neck in the same fashion. Given the ascend on one degree descend another nature of this exercise means I have had to practice it in two different way, starting with ascent on one descent on the second way. Sorry for the difficult description, I've notated the exercise but have no access to a scanner at the moment.

The question would be, is the resolution to the octave/7th of next degree a good example of voice leading?

Thanks for your time.

 

[Roy Vogt]

would there be any kind of rule of thumb as to how often you should aim for one of the weaker chord tones

Weaker is subjective to what you're playing. If I'm playing a walking (or other style) of bass line the stronger choices are Roots and Fifths (10,000,000 Bluegrass Bassists can't be wrong ). If you're soloing the 3rds introduce a melodic content that's very strong and the 7th is a great tool for chord resolution. So 3rds and 7ths are stronger choices if you're soloing. If you're doing this as a purely academic exercise you'd probably ditch any kind of preferences and start and end on each of the chord tones. Then, let your ear decide what's appropriate in each situation, with one caveat: As good bass players we're hard wired to aim for the Root and that is not always the best choice, especially with soloing or melodic playing.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Here's a question for Jeff or Roy. I've been doing an exercise where I start on the tonic, ascend the arpeggio including the 7th, the resolution to the octave introduces the 7th of the next scale degree for which I descend the arpeggio. I do this through all the scale degrees doing the chord tones applicable to each mode up the scale and then descend the neck in the same fashion. Given the ascend on one degree descend another nature of this exercise means I have had to practice it in two different way, starting with ascent on one descent on the second way. Sorry for the difficult description, I've notated the exercise but have no access to a scanner at the moment.

The question would be, is the resolution to the octave/7th of next degree a good example of voice leading?

Thanks for your time.

So you're playing R-3-5-7 to R-7-5-3 as in C-E-G-B ascending to C-A-F-D descending, etc? A voiceleading is any way to connect two chords that typically honors harmonic motion so a major 7th interval will really want to resolve up a half step. If you're doing this as a purely academic exercise reverse the order B-G-E-C descending and then D-F-A-C descending. All of this is still pretty much tied to the Root of the Chord and Bassplayer Mode, so when you're comfortable with that I'd try these different voicings in your arpeggios.
3-5-7-R
5-7-R-3
7-R-3-5
These can work well as a diatonic chord exercise, but they really start to shine in the cycle of 4ths.
You can then try these:
3-5-7-R ascending to 3-R-7-3 descending, etc.
There's endless variations you can come up with for these 4 notes.
If you can get hold of Jeff's old book (A Chord Tone System for Mastering the Bass published by REH in the 80s) it gives you some possibilities. I'll have to look at the thread closely, but I think someone has posted some of the material from some earlier articles by/about Jeff that do the same.
Voiceleading principles are HOW you use the raw data that the chord tones contain, so being comfortable with the raw data is really important.
Hope this helps.

 

[Eminentbass]

So you're playing R-3-5-7 to R-7-5-3 as in C-E-G-B ascending to C-A-F-D descending, etc? A voiceleading is any way to connect two chords that typically honors harmonic motion so a major 7th interval will really want to resolve up a half step. If you're doing this as a purely academic exercise reverse the order B-G-E-C descending and then D-F-A-C descending. All of this is still pretty much tied to the Root of the Chord and Bassplayer Mode, so when you're comfortable with that I'd try these different voicings in your arpeggios.
3-5-7-R
5-7-R-3
7-R-3-5
These can work well as a diatonic chord exercise, but they really start to shine in the cycle of 4ths.
You can then try these:
3-5-7-R ascending to 3-R-7-3 descending, etc.
There's endless variations you can come up with for these 4 notes.
If you can get hold of Jeff's old book (A Chord Tone System for Mastering the Bass published by REH in the 80s) it gives you some possibilities. I'll have to look at the thread closely, but I think someone has posted some of the material from some earlier articles by/about Jeff that do the same.
Voiceleading principles are HOW you use the raw data that the chord tones contain, so being comfortable with the raw data is really important.
Hope this helps.

Yup, I'm ascending C-E-G-B descending C-A-F-D etc, on one way and descending B-G-E-C ascending D-F-A-C etc on the other variation. It started as an exercise to run arpeggios but I think you may have mentioned voice leading in one of your posts here which didn't even occur to me in this exercise.

Thanks for your reply, I'm beginning to get comfortable with the exercise and was about to start doing in it all keys. As you mentioned, there are tons of variations to explore and I can already see the benefits in my fingerboard knowledge. Thank you.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Sorry Jon let me explain better, i don't really like to get to involved with modes till all else has been understood. For me modes come in towards the end of music theory as a "twist in the plot" using scales as learnt at the start of music theory. Modes can be an un-neccesary distraction if introduced to early in my opinion.

What i am saying is that the 7 modes are represented by the white keys on the piano
C-C is Ionian
D-D is Dorian
E-E is Phrygian and so on. And sequence of eight alphabetical notes is a mode. so if we write out the Alphabet as
A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G etc we have the white notes on the piano and in there the seven modes. As explained C-C is a mode (ionian) as is F-F (Lydian) and so on.

Since we need to understand intervals in music, it is the intervals that define scales, therefore modes, therefore chords.
The interval of E-F and B-C are defined on a piano, they are the positions of where the black keys are missing.
The black keys are not one for one to a white key, so the two and three grouping that black keys are in shows intervals B-C and E-F. these represent the two semi-tones required in scales and modes.
Scales and modes are made up of the intervals that comprise two semi-tones and five tones, so that is seven intervals in between eight notes ( therefore a scale).
The confusion for many is that the intervals stay in the same place, it is the starting note that changes so the relation to the interval changes not the position of that interval.
So an Ionian has the intervals of T-T-S-T-T-T-S (T=tone S=semitone) and an Aeolian has T-S-T T-S-T-T.
It is the order of the intervals as defined by the starting note in relation to the use that changes, not the intervals, they as we see on the piano are fixed.

Sorry for any confusion, but i agree with Jeff that this side is un-necessary when learning, it leads to confusion and is a one on one thing with a teacher, not something to be learned on ones own as it takes off in areas not yet relevant.



I hope this explains better what i was saying, and sorry for any confusion.

I've gone to the piano many times in my teaching studio to demonstrate the construction of the modes. If you can get a beginning player to understand that Tones (Whole Steps) are 2 fret distances while Semitones (Half Steps) are 1 fret distances they get it. Constructing the modes and diatonic chords on the White Keys of a piano helps some students see and understand the material.
Hmmmm, you mean those mean people in Music School were right when they made all of us Bassists learn the Piano?

 

[Roy Vogt]

Yup, I'm ascending C-E-G-B descending C-A-F-D etc, on one way and descending B-G-E-C ascending D-F-A-C etc on the other variation. It started as an exercise to run arpeggios but I think you may have mentioned voice leading in one of your posts here which didn't even occur to me in this exercise.

Thanks for your reply, I'm beginning to get comfortable with the exercise and was about to start doing in it all keys. As you mentioned, there are tons of variations to explore and I can already see the benefits in my fingerboard knowledge. Thank you.

I've seen some Mark Egan exercises that do that for diatonic chords. A lot of times I'll have my student take a given modal sound (say Dorian) and play those patterns up and down one and two octaves of the mode to learn the bass neck and get comfortable with working in one key.

 

[Eminentbass]

I've seen some Mark Egan exercises that do that for diatonic chords. A lot of times I'll have my student take a given modal sound (say Dorian) and play those patterns up and down one and two octaves of the mode to learn the bass neck and get comfortable with working in one key.

I fall into the category of players who over-emphasized scales and modes in my practice but neglected the importance of chord tones, even though in performance the use of chord tones was more apparent in my playing without me even realizing it.

Working on these has really opened up my eyes to how well I know(or don't know) my fingerboard compared to how well I thought Knew it. I won't discount the knowledge or understanding gained through scales or modes but taking the modal concept and focusing on the arpeggios plus practising standards using only chord tones has taken that understanding to a new level.

 

[chadhargis]

Why is it I read every word of this stuff, and it seems like greek to me, except every once in awhile, something will stick out.

Roy, when you said this:

If I'm playing a walking (or other style) of bass line the stronger choices are Roots and Fifths (10,000,000 Bluegrass Bassists can't be wrong ).

It made me think. Yes, bluegrass is easy to play, and growing up listening to a banjo playing brother, I've been exposed to it since I was 2 years old. I have quite a collection, and I can easily play along with most songs.

Root-V is a given, but I also see a lot of, what I would call, 2-5 use as well. Thinking about it using what I've been trying to absorb here, is that really a 2-5, or did the key change and it become a root-5 played by going down a string (cycle of 5ths? Is that the right term?).

Does that make any sense at all? Sorry, I'm short on the nomenclature. God only knows how much stuff I have to look up the meaning for when reading this thread. It's a big help, as the best way to learn to swim is to be thrown in the deep end. You either swim or drown. I'm doing my best to tread water.

 

[JeffBerlin]

What I don't understand is why you would use these modes? Could you not simply use the standard scale when playing?

Good moring to all! It is exactly this question that shows the vagueness of scales. This has been my point all along!

 

[JeffBerlin]

So you're saying in the key of C to circle C-E-G as the triad (the 1,3,5)? Which brings me back to why you need modes. It's the same triad in each mode, fingering is simply changed.

That's what's confusing me. Why change how you finger things?

In academica, it is not about need. It is about enlightenment! Facts, especially great, perfect, musical facts should be learned. Why? Because they exist and because we are musicians. The modes themselves are one lessons. Like, scales, like other elements of music, they are one-time experiences and really aren't a big deal at all. They are overrated elements of musical improvement, which is why many teachers can't teacher; they only know about mods, scales and making sure that their students play with click in case they (God forbid a thousand times) speed up or slow down while they are learning.

 

[tZer]

I fall into the category of players who over-emphasized scales and modes in my practice but neglected the importance of chord tones, even though in performance the use of chord tones was more apparent in my playing without me even realizing it.

Working on these has really opened up my eyes to how well I know(or don't know) my fingerboard compared to how well I thought Knew it. I won't discount the knowledge or understanding gained through scales or modes but taking the modal concept and focusing on the arpeggios plus practising standards using only chord tones has taken that understanding to a new level.

+1 here. Having my introduction to music come via classical - scales and key signatures - that's the world. Translating it to jazz and improvisation is very counter-intuitive. Once I recognized what chord tones were I still thought in terms of scales and key signatures, but I opted for the 1, 3, 5 and 7's of the scales I was trying to use. It sounded better, but still felt off...

Then breaking away from key sig. centric thinking and paying attention solely to the chords at hand it became obvious why chord tones are so powerful. Scales stopped being 'scales' per se and became 'scalar passages' used to connect musical statements that were primarily based on chord tones/arpeggios.

These threads and this discussion has me focusing on voice leading and recognizing the many interesting ways one chord can connect with another - and I discover this stuff by getting it into my head first, then practicing it slowly and out of time paying close attention to what it sounds like.

The things you can hear when you know what you are listening for and playing it slowly and out of time are incredible!