Jimi Hendrix and black culture.

[Snakeman1066]

Wow....possible can of worms?

to add my .02

For the Record My Father is Native American and my mother is Swedish and Dutch! (I'm a mutt)

I think we have tendency to naturally progress from what our parents listened to when we were kids.....For me that was Buddy Holly, The Big Bopper, Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, The Beach Boys, CCR, Janis, Jimi Hendrix, The Doors, The Beatles, Johnny Cash etc. In the 70's i discovered Alice Cooper, The MC5, Kiss, Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zep, Rush, Pink Floyd...etc. and Later the Ramones, Iggy and the Stooges, Black Flag, Circle Jerks, JFA, etc. which led to Metal in the 80's Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Accept...later Metallica, Mercyful Fate, Venom...etc. etc. etc. then the 90's Tool, Monster Magnet, Disturbed...etc.

So I'm going to assume that most children of African American descent made a natural progression from what their parents listened to (and I'm guessing here), but the Commodores, Sly and the Family Stone, Parliment, Funkadelic, Earth Wind and Fire, Diana Ross, most Motown stuff which naturally leads to R&B, and dance and Disco, which abviously leads to The Sugar Hill Gang, Grandmaster Flash, Fab Five Freddy, Run DMC etc. etc. etc.

Now that being said you have people that cross over (M-n-M, Vanilla Ice, Kid Rock) to the other side as it were as i have a huge love for Blues myself Jimmy Reed (Big Boss Man) whic Elvis covered...Leadbelly, Lightning Hopkins, Buddy Guy, B.B. King, Muddy Waters (Black people don't like guitars my butt!)the list is endless and yes even i listen to some Rap and Hip Hop, i like the Cottonmouth Kings, Cube, Busta, Coolio and a few others.

I had a conversation with a 28 year old aspiring Hip Hop artist the other day about our influences and he had no idea who any of the blues players were that i mentioned above (Add Robert Johnson to that list as well), nor did he know who Fab Five Freddy was....i find it amazing that even some musicians don't know their own musical cultural history..


As far as no rock being found in black culture you are smoking something dude because most of the popular rap songs i hear on the radio these days have sampled music from bands such as Iron Butterfly (Naz Hip Hop is Dead), lest we forget Tone Loc's two big hits (with sampled Eddie Van Halen Riffs), somebody recently sampled Ozzy (I forget who), you even have Busta Rhymes flowing over the top of Sabbath's Iron Man (This means War which is really good) you had bands like Limp Bizkit and Biohazard which combined both genre's not to mention Anthrax remember Bring the Noise? or Aerosmith and Run DMC?

Hendrix was the man for sure he pioneered some effects and paved the way for a lot of guitar players to play outside the box

I think more white people idolized him because he was relevant to the eventual emergence of what would be called Metal music...but there is no doubt that his roots were in the Blues

is this post long enough?...lol

 

[lee135]

Thanks for breaching an interesting topic. England is European, but Jimi Hendrix had made it big there and then rode the tail of the British Invasion back to America. He lived and succeeded easily in Europe. He was surrounded by European fans, friends and associates. His desire was a world without race but of all colours. Perhaps he walked alone. Like most American musicians who work in Europe, he was out of touch with America and then viewed by the world as a European phenomena. American music had become highly politicized. Where could he fit in? He shared the stage and competed with England's best rock guitarists. And exceeded them. I first heard the Jimi Hendrix Experience play Hey Joe on a little shelf radio around 1966-67(?) around 1AM. The disc jockey in Montreal had received a tape from the Animal's bass player. His voice was soul and blues but the music was from another world. I got up and ran to the radio to hear every note. It was more magical for me than the Beatles on Ed Sullivan. It was a clarion call. Music was changing forever. Some people are universal. I've never heard anyone speak poorly of him. I've been told by Black people that they were very proud of him. I think everyone wants him as their own which precludes him from being championed by any one. Perhaps he was successful in being himself, a Black musician projecting his humanity. Its a wonder and a mystery.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Have you ever thought about why Teena Marie was so popular in Black Music and only had one top forty hit?

Why is Bobby Caldwell's "What You Won't Do For Love" still in rotation on Urban "Quite Storm" programs, and rarely played on pop radio?

Why did the Average White Band have so much more success on Black Radio than pop stations?


All are white and I would guess most whites don't know them.

 

[markjazzbassist]

Why did the Average White Band have so much more success on Black Radio than pop stations?

All are white and I would guess most whites don't know them.

great point, but AWB is pretty popular, and after there first 2 albums, their drummer died and they had a black dude (Steve Ferrone) play drums for them. AWB was one of the first integrated bands out man, other than Hendrix's group and a couple others.

 

[skaliwag66]

I am black and I worship Hendrix!

 

[Jared Lash]

Have you ever thought about why Teena Marie was so popular in Black Music and only had one top forty hit?

Why is Bobby Caldwell's "What You Won't Do For Love" still in rotation on Urban "Quite Storm" programs, and rarely played on pop radio?

Why did the Average White Band have so much more success on Black Radio than pop stations?


All are white and I would guess most whites don't know them.

Doc, I'm not quite seeing your point. Sure, these are white artists that most white people don't know about but the parallel doesn't really work. I wouldn't discredit Teena Marie by saying that she was simply copying "black music" of the time, because she really is talented. But at the same time, she isn't influential to the same degree that Hendrix is.

People don't talk about Rick James discovering her in the same way that people recount Chas Chandler discovering Jimi. She was a talented singer who could be molded into an R&B star. He was a force of nature who needed a bigger stage to capture the imagination of musicians worldwide.

I just don't see it as the same thing.

 

[skaliwag66]

Oh yeah maybe it has to do with the fact he was more popular in the UK than in the USA at the time. England's black population wasn't what it was today.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Doc, I'm not quite seeing your point. Sure, these are white artists that most white people don't know about but the parallel doesn't really work. I wouldn't discredit Teena Marie by saying that she was simply copying "black music" of the time, because she really is talented. But at the same time, she isn't influential to the same degree that Hendrix is.

People don't talk about Rick James discovering her in the same way that people recount Chas Chandler discovering Jimi. She was a talented singer who could be molded into an R&B star. He was a force of nature who needed a bigger stage to capture the imagination of musicians worldwide.

I just don't see it as the same thing.

My point is that the OP seems to assume that because Hendrix is Black, there should be Black people into him. I mentioned some white artists with Black followings to show that color is poor indicator of who one's art appeals to.

 

[Snakeman1066]

Most people don't realize that Phil Lynott was black. Phil formed Thin Lizzy around 1970 in Dublin. He was inspired by Jimi Hendrix as an example of how a black man could successfully front a hard rock band. Lynott was the main songwriter for Thin Lizzy, as well as the lead singer and bassist.

Its all about perception....

True story...

Buddy Holly managed to bridge some of the racial divide that marked rock n' roll music. While Elvis made black music more acceptable to whites, Holly won over an all-black audience when the Crickets were accidentally booked at New York's Apollo Theater (because they thought he was BLACK!)

 

[Jared Lash]

My point is that the OP seems to assume that because Hendrix is Black, there should be Black people into him. I mentioned some white artists with Black followings to show that color is poor indicator of who one's art appeals to.

Fair point.

I suppose the larger question is why rock music (especially "classic" rock) seemingly holds much less appeal among black youth than white considering its forefathers were primarily black Americans (Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Robert Johnson, etc)

 

[phektus]

This subject may very well be too hot for TB, but I thought I'd ask this question to a bunch of fellow musicians to see if I can gain a bit of perspective I would not have otherwise gained.

I have often wondered why it appears that mainstream black culture does not embrace Jimi Hendrix.

Admittedly, I'm a white dude, and although I appreciate many aspects of what could be seen as a collective black culture, I am not immersed in it. Yet, as a musician, I have often wondered why I don't see black Americans embracing Jimi (or many other iconic black musicians, for that matter). I see young white kids wearing Hendrix shirts and listening to his music constantly, yet I have never seen a young black man wearing one nor listening to his music. Hendrix is revered as a god by many, yet for some reason he seems conspicuously absent from the pantheon of black heroes. Martin Luther King, Tupac, Muhammad Ali, Malcom X - I see that these men are revered by black people of all ages, and they are revered for good reason. Where is Jimi?

I have thought that perhaps it's because Jimi played "white" music... but then I thought of how much Eminem has been accepted into "black" music. Could it be as simple as Dave Chappelle's theory that black people just don't like guitars? It seems like a great many black musicians, such as Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Chuck Berry, Robert Johnson, Living Colour, etc. are embraced by white audiences much more so than black audiences. What gives?

Maybe I'm not seeing the whole situation clearly, as I am on one side of the color line and can only see things from my own perspective. Perhaps Snoop Dogg really does jam out to Hendrix (or maybe even James Taylor when nobody is looking). Maybe this is strictly an American thing - or maybe even just a Dirty South thing. Whatever the truth is, I'm not really grasping it.

Opinions?

IMHO that's because Jimi never spoke about black rights, pride and such. The personalities you mentioned as heroes spoke of what they observed as a form of oppression to black people. They have been 'racist' in the sense that they pointed out the discrimination and used their craft to voice out change.

As for Jimi and the other black artists, they stood for their music and art. Like they placed their music above their color. That is why they are heroes to their craft. Like Jimi is a hero to blues and rock&roll and guitar in general. White people liked what Jimi is doing as well as black people back then. In due time a new culture surfaced that is not only liked by black people but also stood for their pride and provided a way for them to somehow 'rebel' against the oppression of their color.

So, yeah, the usual black crowd doesn't like guitars because that did not represent them as victims of society. They liked rap music and the whole hip hop culture better because hip hop represented the underdog of society, which they see themselves are and fighting for it.

People react to ideals and symbols based on perceived value and meaning to them. This changes over time and on different places. I think it is wrong to generalize black people as this is just applicable IMHO to American society. Other 'black' nations perceived rock and roll versus hiphop differently, or they may don't give a damn about those completely. That means that the OP's question is only limited to the American Black population.

Time and geography contributes to this context. Such is my observation.

 

[Jared Lash]

IMHO that's because Jimi never spoke about black rights, pride and such. The personalities you mentioned as heroes spoke of what they observed as a form of oppression to black people. They have been 'racist' in the sense that they pointed out the discrimination and used their craft to voice out change.

As for Jimi and the other black artists, they stood for their music and art. Like they placed their music above their color. That is why they are heroes to their craft. Like Jimi is a hero to blues and rock&roll and guitar in general. White people liked what Jimi is doing as well as black people back then. In due time a new culture surfaced that is not only liked by black people but also stood for their pride and provided a way for them to somehow 'rebel' against the oppression of their color.

So, yeah, the usual black crowd doesn't like guitars because that did not represent them as victims of society. They liked rap music and the whole hip hop culture better because hip hop represented the underdog of society, which they see themselves are and fighting for it.

Such is my observation.

I'm sorry, but this is one of the dumbest things I've seen on TB in a long time. Black people don't like guitars because they don't represent them as victims of society? WHAT?

In a less stupid form, I've seen this already in this thread. The idea that because Jimi's lack of appeal somehow stems from his lack of participation in race relations. I'm sorry, but is that how most of you choose your music? By the artist's social stances?

Give me a break.

 

[bassaficionado6]

I'm sorry, but this is one of the dumbest things I've seen on TB in a long time. Black people don't like guitars because they don't represent them as victims of society? WHAT?

In a less stupid form, I've seen this already in this thread. The idea that because Jimi's lack of appeal somehow stems from his lack of participation in race relations. I'm sorry, but is that how most of you choose your music? By the artist's social stances?

Give me a break.

If you were refering to my thread, I would just like to say that I wasn't saying black youth aren't listening to Jimi because he wasn't a black rights activist. I was merely comparing him to MLK and Malcolm X in terms of being accepted into black mainstream culutre, as mentioned in the original post.

If you were not, however, I will be on my merry way.

 

[dlloyd]

The truth of the matter is that it is all down to money, Jimi Hendrix was never marketed towards a black audience. When Chas Chandler brought him to Britain, he was marketed to a young white audience, which is where the money was. The black community in Britain was, and is, much smaller and had vastly different tastes in music.

Jimi made his first high profile impression in America with the Monterey Pop Festival, and following that became a figurehead of the white, hippy culture. That wasn't by accident, it was again all to do with marketing... That's where the most money was.

That's not a criticism of Hendrix... if the books are to believed, he hardly saw any of the money anyway and was altogether naive in the way his career was managed.

 

[Vandelay]

The truth of the matter is that it is all down to money, Jimi Hendrix was never marketed towards a black audience. When Chas Chandler brought him to Britain, he was marketed to a young white audience, which is where the money was. The black community in Britain was, and is, much smaller and had vastly different tastes in music.

Jimi made his first high profile impression in America with the Monterey Pop Festival, and following that became a figurehead of the white, hippy culture. That wasn't by accident, it was again all to do with marketing... That's where the most money was.

Yep, a lot of it was the marketing. Mainstream black culture was identified with R&B and pop music. Jimi's music clearly wasn't dance-oriented, it wasn't pop-oriented, and it wasn't R&B-oriented, so those radio programmers ignored it. By contrast, Sly and the Family Stone could be marketed as danceable, pop and R&B.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Yep, a lot of it was the marketing. Mainstream black culture was identified with R&B and pop music. Jimi's music clearly wasn't dance-oriented, it wasn't pop-oriented, and it wasn't R&B-oriented, so those radio programmers ignored it. By contrast, Sly and the Family Stone could be marketed as danceable, pop and R&B.

This is directly related to what I was saying. Popular Black music is dance oriented. Early rock was dance oriented. By the end of the Sixties, when Hendrix became big, rock was no longer dance music.

As for Phektus' post, that was just silly.

 

[jokerjkny]

i'd think they do... how could you not?

or least they use his legacy studio enough:

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[marcray]

there is an interesting movie I've watched many times about Jimi that does go into this topic quite deeply. I'm deeply paraphrasing, and going from memory, but as I remember it, Billy Cox and others remarked that Jimi felt like the black community turned their back on him and it hurt him quite a lot. He felt that their reasons were that he did refuse to participate, or openly support movements like the Black Panthers etc... he put music above everything and actually saw it as a great uniter, whereas he felt the black community were pressuring him to use his image to bolster black power alone.

Many thought the hiring of Cox was an attempt to find a middle ground but this was refuted by Cox. I apologize if my details are wrong in some ways, as I said I'm going from memory of a documentary I've sat thru a few times.

As many of us know, Jimi was more interested in the causes for peace, unification and was, for my money, way ahead of his years, and to me, beautiful in spirit.

 

[jokerjkny]

Yep, a lot of it was the marketing. Mainstream black culture was identified with R&B and pop music. Jimi's music clearly wasn't dance-oriented, it wasn't pop-oriented, and it wasn't R&B-oriented, so those radio programmers ignored it. By contrast, Sly and the Family Stone could be marketed as danceable, pop and R&B.

but its incredible how much sly took from jimi's personal style...

and whether black culture knows it or not, given the amount of apeing that guys like george clinton and parliament funkadelic took from jimi, they pretty much ramrodded everything jimi was into so called "black culture"...

 

[burk48237]

I do think people need to realize that by 1970 music wasn't as segregated on the Radio as it is today. We listened to Sly, Stevie Wonder, Alman Bros, Cream, Creadence, Hendrix, Clapton, etc. on the same radio stations and it was all cool. I remember growing up in a mixed neighborhood and crowd I hung out with dug Sly, but we really liked Hendrix and the Isley Bros. because they had guitars. We were all guitar or bass players! But there weren't a lot of mixed neighbor hoods in 1970 so I'm sure in that sense my experience was unique.

I do remember that for the longest time African Americans didn't identify with blues. I remember going to see BB King in Detroit in 75 or 76 and that their were almost no African Americans in the crowd. and that may have a lot to do with the Hendrix thing. People forget that Miles Davis was the top money artist for Columbia Records from 57-62. I'm sure that a vast majority of Miles audience (especially outside of NY) was white at the time. In fact I seem to recall some comments about this in his autobiography. In the late 70's when you would go to check out a fusion band (Weather Report, RTF) almost all of the audience was white and young. So I'm not sure how big Jazz and fusion was among younger African Americans in that era.

Maybe Dave Chapelles right. I also seem to recall a regular routine on the TV show "Living Color" that wasn't exactly reverend in it's perceptions of the old man blues guitar player. But It's not safe to assume anything. One of the best bass players in Detroit, a cat named Will Pope who been a good friend for years who can lay down the funk with anyone grew up listening to Rush, Zeppelin, Journey and Aerosmith. Will still sites Geddy Lee as one of his biggest early influences. He probably knows more Rush tunes then I've ever heard. Will is now the regular player in one of the largest African American churches in the country (Word of Faith) and also tours all over the world with different Hip-Hop bands.