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Jimi Hendrix and black culture.

#41
jokerjkny said:
but its incredible how much sly took from jimi's personal style...

and whether black culture knows it or not, given the amount of apeing that guys like george clinton and parliament funkadelic took from jimi, they pretty much ramrodded everything jimi was into so called "black culture"...
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One of the things that strikes me is how so many people who are not Black see the "Black Community" as a monolith. Of course, Black Musicians were influenced by Hendrix. Musicians have big ears and get influences from everywhere. George Clinton also was hugely influenced by the Beatles too.

The influence of Hendrix on the wider Black community is another issue. Hendrix played rock that was not dance oriented. Sly, who at least had a look similar to Hendrix, played some funky jammin' dance music. Rap, which dominates today is mainly about beats and dancing. Dancibility is central to African derived music. Any music that is going to touch the great majority of casual Black listeners has to be dance music.
 
#42
burk48237 said:
I do remember that for the longest time African Americans didn't identify with blues. I remember going to see BB King in Detroit in 75 or 76 and that their were almost no African Americans in the crowd.
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That's something I've read BB King talking about many times. Blues was seen as an embarrassment that harked back to slavery...

NY Times said:
But he also still hears the booing directed at him at the Royal Theater in Baltimore in the 1960's by black teenagers who viewed the blues as an embarrassment and a relic. They saved their cheers for Sam Cooke and the Drifters, and the memory still torments him.

''I'll never forget it,'' Mr. King said. ''They didn't know about the blues. They'd been taught that the blues was the bottom of the totem pole, done by slaves, and they didn't want to think along those lines.''

On another occasion in the 60's, in a Chicago club, he followed the singers Sarah Vaughan and Joe Williams, who were given lavish introductions by the M.C. When Mr. King's turn came, the M.C. said, ''O.K., folks, time to pull out your chitlins and your collard greens, your pigs' feet and your watermelons, because here is B. B. King.''
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The adoption of Blues by a white audience was mocked by certain elements:

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#44
Dr. Cheese said:
The influence of Hendrix on the wider Black community is another issue. Hendrix played rock that was not dance oriented. Sly, who at least had a look similar to Hendrix, played some funky jammin' dance music. Rap, which dominates today is mainly about beats and dancing. Dancibility is central to African derived music. Any music that is going to touch the great majority of casual Black listeners has to be dance music.
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isn't this simply because black artists that preceeded hendrix (and white artists too), made it that way and it was "wedged" and had a firm grip on society already? That the model for music itself was to make people dance, and not move them maybe cerebrally, as an artist like Hendrix could do?

Could a statement also be made that the movements of a flower child spinning and waving his/her arms in a field listening to "Purple Haze", is also dancing?

To make the argument that any music that is going to appeal to a majority of black listeners has to be dance, would cause many to assume that black people are the only race with dance in their history. When the truth is that most cultures adopted dance far enough back in time for it to be "in their blood" so to speak...

You could also say that the Latino culture is also based around dance as a preferred form of music, though some of their biggest and most popular artists have been, and continue to be, straight up rock.

I say all this only in debate...
 
#45
Good points from just about everybody here.

The one point made that I take issue with is that Jimi isn't popular among the black community is because he didn't speak specifically of race relations. I don't think this is true; Jimi spoke of universal peace and love, much in the same way Bob Marley did. Yet, I see that Marley is revered in the black community (even though he did play guitar). Why is Bob all over T-shirts and Jimi is not?
 
#46
marcray said:
there is an interesting movie I've watched many times about Jimi that does go into this topic quite deeply. I'm deeply paraphrasing, and going from memory, but as I remember it, Billy Cox and others remarked that Jimi felt like the black community turned their back on him and it hurt him quite a lot. He felt that their reasons were that he did refuse to participate, or openly support movements like the Black Panthers etc... he put music above everything and actually saw it as a great uniter, whereas he felt the black community were pressuring him to use his image to bolster black power alone.

Many thought the hiring of Cox was an attempt to find a middle ground but this was refuted by Cox. I apologize if my details are wrong in some ways, as I said I'm going from memory of a documentary I've sat thru a few times.

As many of us know, Jimi was more interested in the causes for peace, unification and was, for my money, way ahead of his years, and to me, beautiful in spirit.
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Part of what people are kind of missing is not just black culture- but American culture in 1968-70. Although there are some here that remember, most of us don't know just how turbulent these times were.

Vietnam, the civil rights movement, the 'youth' movement, Martin Luther King's assassination, Robert Kennedy's assasination- that's just 1968.
 
#47
Benjamin Strange said:
Truthfully, not much, which is why I ask. Granted, my best friend is black, but he's not in touch with the black community either, and isn't much help.

I live in an area that is predominantly black (well, at least it was before the storm), and play music for a living, and yet I very rarely see black people in the audiences at our shows, or even at other people's shows. We've got some great black musicians down here, like George Porter, Kermit Ruffins, and the Dirty Dozen Brass Band, etc., and yet their audiences are almost always 100% white. I don't get it.
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Look at Jazzfest. my sister and I did an informal count for a running percentage of black folk. Single digits.

I do see more black folk at brass band gigs here. But don't even get me started on the almost total lack of support for blues.

I grew up during the Hendrix years. There was a greater main stream divide on what was considered "white" (=rock) and "Black" (=r&b/soul) back then. Jazz was always a niche thing, regardless of color.

What amazed me was the almost total lack of knowledge that black musicians were at the foundation of what became rock. My high school band was a pwr trio in the Experience/Cream mold. I can't tell you the number of "why you playin' that ----" comments we got in the 'hood.
 
#48
phektus said:
IMHO that's because Jimi never spoke about black rights, pride and such. The personalities you mentioned as heroes spoke of what they observed as a form of oppression to black people. They have been 'racist' in the sense that they pointed out the discrimination and used their craft to voice out change.

As for Jimi and the other black artists, they stood for their music and art. Like they placed their music above their color. That is why they are heroes to their craft. Like Jimi is a hero to blues and rock&roll and guitar in general. White people liked what Jimi is doing as well as black people back then. In due time a new culture surfaced that is not only liked by black people but also stood for their pride and provided a way for them to somehow 'rebel' against the oppression of their color.

So, yeah, the usual black crowd doesn't like guitars because that did not represent them as victims of society. They liked rap music and the whole hip hop culture better because hip hop represented the underdog of society, which they see themselves are and fighting for it.

People react to ideals and symbols based on perceived value and meaning to them. This changes over time and on different places. I think it is wrong to generalize black people as this is just applicable IMHO to American society. Other 'black' nations perceived rock and roll versus hiphop differently, or they may don't give a damn about those completely. That means that the OP's question is only limited to the American Black population.

Time and geography contributes to this context. Such is my observation.
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Ah, I'll gently say not true. Part of the reason Band of Gypsies was formed, plus some lessor know n collaborations was that Jimi was feeling pressure to not only speak, but show his support for the "movement".
 
#49
The Golden Boy said:
Part of what people are kind of missing is not just black culture- but American culture in 1968-70. Although there are some here that remember, most of us don't know just how turbulent these times were.

Vietnam, the civil rights movement, the 'youth' movement, Martin Luther King's assassination, Robert Kennedy's assasination- that's just 1968.
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Absolutely... I personally always thought of Hendrix as a guy that somewhat strove to see the big picture (albeit a little blurred).
 
#50
marcray said:
Could a statement also be made that the movements of a flower child spinning and waving his/her arms in a field listening to "Purple Haze", is also dancing?

To make the argument that any music that is going to appeal to a majority of black listeners has to be dance, would cause many to assume that black people are the only race with dance in their history. When the truth is that most cultures adopted dance far enough back in time for it to be "in their blood" so to speak...

You could also say that the Latino culture is also based around dance as a preferred form of music, though some of their biggest and most popular artists have been, and continue to be, straight up rock.

I say all this only in debate...
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Saying that someone values dance in their music does not mean they are the only peoples with dance in their history. Just that they value the dance aspect in that popular culture more than other cultures.

I actually think it's a good point. I think dancing is much more culturally embraced in the black and latino cultures than whites. For example: it is actually frowned on for me to dance at a concert or venue. I was at a bar Saturday night dancing and the looks I got (mostly from other white males) were of straight dislike/disapproval. It might be of interest to note that it seems to me that white culture in America is more interested in dancing in a formal/competitive setting. This is just part of it all. The marketing/societal issues are also very good points. Intriguing question in the OP!
 
#52
Brian Jr. said:
Saying that someone values dance in their music does not mean they are the only peoples with dance in their history. Just that they value the dance aspect in that popular culture more than other cultures.
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You are of course correct, but that wasn't exactly the point I was trying to make as a whole.

Brian Jr. said:
I actually think it's a good point. I think dancing is much more culturally embraced in the black and latino cultures than whites. For example: it is actually frowned on for me to dance at a concert or venue. I was at a bar Saturday night dancing and the looks I got (mostly from other white males) were of straight dislike/disapproval. It might be of interest to note that it seems to me that white culture in America is more interested in dancing in a formal/competitive setting. This is just part of it all. The marketing/societal issues are also very good points. Intriguing question in the OP!
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Really? Frowned upon? Wow, I'd say that maybe you were being frowned upon for your willingness to let yourself go a little to have a good time. I have terrible white man anxiety over dancing, and I am very jealous of my brother in law who is absolutely brazen in his willingness to make a massive fool of himself dancing like a complete idiot. And man, does he and everyone around him have an amazingly good time. Must be the booze.:D

And back to the point... the black communities love of dance doesn't exactly explain it's unwillingness to adopt Jimi Hendrix and the music he made (of course not the whole community). Disclaimer: it's easy to take this last comment out of context if you have not read my previous posts...
 
#53
I think that a lot of it is likely due to fashion. Not all kids wearing Hendrix t-shirts are trendy btu many are. When I was in high school, my friends and I were all metal kids. We were into Anthrax, Metallica, Slayer, etc. Of course we loved Metallica because well, that was when they didn't suck. But when And Justice for All was released, a lot of the trendy kids in my school started showing up in Metallica shirts. Cheerleaders, jocks, preppies, etc. began wearing the same t-shirts that my friends and I were wearing. We kinda laughed at them but when it became an eye rolling moment was when they began approaching us asking if "Kill 'Em All" was the new album from Metallica. Thing is; most of those kids had no idea who Metallica was. They saw the "One" video on MTV when it premiered and they heard all the buzz about this new band Metallica so they all went to the rock and roll store at the mall and bought up all the t-shirts. When the next trend came along they jumped on that as well. As for why more black kids aren't into Hendrix...I haven't a clue.
 
#54
A comment and a question.

On Jazz festivals, In Detroit the festival is easily 70/30 Black/white and their seems to be a solid appreciation for Jazz among the African American community in this community. Although unfortunately a lot of it is of the smooth variety.:rolleyes: But I go to Bakers (jazz club) about ounce every couple of months and the patrons are overwhelmingly AA. What I don't see is a lot of AA YOUNG PEOPLE at these functions, and that leads me to my question.

Is it possible that the young musician community of white players is more in tuned to music heritage because generally they are a little more in tune to history period? Not that the American education system does a great job of teaching anyone history. But I suspect a white kid in a suburban school is much more likely to hear about Jimmy Hendrix and the "summer of love" in a history class then an AA kid in an inner city school. Also white AOR stations still play Hendrix along with the Metallica, Tool, Zeppelin. Where as I doubt many of the Hip Hop stations play ANYTHING older then about five years.
 
#56
How hard is it to believe that black and white people like different music? Jimi Hendrix was an icon in the rock and roll scene, just as much as NWA or Jay Dilla is an icon in the hip hop scene. A history teacher teaching an inner city school comprised mostly of black kids probably wouldn't go over the "summer of love" in a history class. Pardon me for any ignorance if I'm wrong, but even with an increase in black participation, I don't remember it being the big "black movement" of the era.
 
#57
I was in my formative years of learning to play guitar (and bass) when Hendrix released his groundbreaking Are You Experienced album. When you heard him play that there was none of that aforementioned disconnect between Rock and Soul/R 'n B. It was a refreshing new music where skin pigmentation differences did not create a cultural divide. It was beautiful and I remember it like it was yesterday.
 
#58
I have a dvd of jimi hendrix and the band of gypsies at the Fillmore,I think this was the gig the album came from. on the dvd they talk a lot about jimi wanting to reach people in the black community and how difficult he had it for various reasons. Hooking up with buddy miles and billy cox not only took the music in a different direction but also changed the look of the band and altered some peoples perceptions of jimi especially his management who were not happy about this direction. I am in my very late 30's and I didn't really start checking out hendrix until the mid '90's when they began reissuing all his stuff on cd,as a black kid from the south suburbs of Chicago we weren't checking for Jimi like that although i knew who he was. When I did check him out I loved the music and could hear so many thing's from the African disporia resonating through his work but I had to go back and discover this stuff.some one used the paralell to Bob marley and I have to remind you of this ;Bob Marley is far more popular in the black community today than he was in the '70's and part of that is marketing
 
#59
burk48237 said:
A comment and a question.

On Jazz festivals, In Detroit the festival is easily 70/30 Black/white and their seems to be a solid appreciation for Jazz among the African American community in this community. Although unfortunately a lot of it is of the smooth variety.:rolleyes: But I go to Bakers (jazz club) about ounce every couple of months and the patrons are overwhelmingly AA. What I don't see is a lot of AA YOUNG PEOPLE at these functions, and that leads me to my question.

Is it possible that the young musician community of white players is more in tuned to music heritage because generally they are a little more in tune to history period? Not that the American education system does a great job of teaching anyone history. But I suspect a white kid in a suburban school is much more likely to hear about Jimmy Hendrix and the "summer of love" in a history class then an AA kid in an inner city school. Also white AOR stations still play Hendrix along with the Metallica, Tool, Zeppelin. Where as I doubt many of the Hip Hop stations play ANYTHING older then about five years.
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For the most part popular music in the AA market segment is directed at the 13-25 yrs olds. AA over let's say 35+ are out of luck and smooth jazz is what they start listening to.As far as white kids hearing about jimi in history class let me throw this out;if you like and listin to and aspire to play rock music you have to come thru Hendrix because his style is part of the vocabulary
 

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