Double Bass John Goldsby on Red Mitchell

[pnchad]

I put both elements on and am liking the tone. I'm running it directly into a very clean amp (although heavy and not sometime I want to lug on a quiet jazz gig) - a Glockenklang Blue Soul with a Shroeder 21210 cab. Extremely warm when you want it and really transparent otherwise. I actually had to boost the mids & mid highs from where my EB settings were.

I always remembered a scratchy front end to notes I didn't like. Not harsh at all right now.

Oh, and considerable thump too. That could be the strings though. I put Zyex (sp?) on this bass 3.5 yrs ago and then put it away so this is the first I've put in any time with this set up.

 

[Don Kasper]

loud amps, but soft playing.

This brings up the concept of "volume" vs. "intensity" - the pickup+amp combination can only "make louder" whatever "time/intensity/groove/pulse/etc." that you're (acoustically) generating. Making it louder doesn't make it better, or stronger, necessarily. Increasing the volume CAN help others hear your "time" better, but it can't compensate for or change your "acoustic time", (AT as we'll call it.) The "acoustic time" happens as a result of you internal embrace of the collective time - and that gets filtered and delivered thru your R and L Hands in a very complex mechanical delivery system (IMO). I've often wondered if certain bassists that play(ed) "lightly", had "issues" with certain drummers (and other instruments) who wanted to hear a more intense pulse (AT) coming from the bass. It seems that, historically, certain bass/drum combinations had an almost unconscious agreement as to what was expected from each other...other combinations, not so much. I still think the best compliment that a drummer can give a bassist at the end of the night is "...you made it easy..." - there was no "time-struggle" between us.
RM with either EJ or PJJ seems like a mismatch from this point of view. Is this possibly what you were referring to, John?
This is fascinating stuff (IMO).
Thanks.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Was this way of playing in his later years the reason that he chose not to play with drummers, to avoid the amplification nightmare that would result? Or maybe he just preferred to have total freedom to set the time himself? Either way, this information is interesting. It's hard not to notice this light, dancelike way of playing he adopted toward the later years of his career. I had never put it together with Jim Hall's way of playing, but it makes sense. It kind of reminds me of the lightness of touch that great bass guitarists play with, only on an acoustic instrument.

In observing Red from videos, it seemed as if he had the ability to coax different timbres from the instrument depending on tastes.

In playing around with pulling up toward the middle of the neck vs. down toward the end, I discovered that a different drive could be had. Do it like Red and you had this voice that would speak with a lot of character but you had to turn up just a tad. Meanwhile pulling the strings way past the normal spot, pretty much at the end of the fingerboard, had this really great attack that came through in loud situations. Without the headroom, this type of timbre manipulation is hard to do because you're always pulling with a certain amount of force just to get the basic sound out. Turn it up and you have more room for nuance.

I'm curious to hear from John or Unca P if Red gave any advice on this particular topic at all.

 

[Paul Warburton]

@John Goldsby, in the earlier discussion about Red's pickups, I meant to drop this clip.
At about 7:16 in, during Red's solo, you can clearly see underneath his fingerboard, a long, maybe, aluminum pickup with a patch cord visible at the bottom.
In Internet speak, ***?

 

[John Goldsby]

Paul, I don't know what that pickup is . . . when I knew Red, he had his New York bass, and I think in this video it's one of his bass(es) that he had in Sweden. On the NY bass, he had some kind of magnetic pickup at the end of the fingerboard, plus the other ones on the bridge and maybe one on the body of the bass. Red was a tinker and he liked gadgets, so to him it was normal to fiddle with a lot of pickups. I've always preferred finding one system that works—more or less—and sticking with that.

David Gage and the guys at his shop would know what Red used, if there are an TBers here who visit the Gage shop.

Red never told me "how" he was getting his sound, but I saw him a lot for awhile, I listened to his recordings from all eras, and I emulated what he did.

Regarding playing with "intensity and volume": It's hard to play the bass well at any dynamic level, but there is more of a microscope on the sound when the amp is cranked. There are some players who can play with a loud amp, but they do it so elegantly that the amp doesn't feel overbearing, it's just part of the sound. Other players can sound overbearing with the amp. It depends a lot on the stylistic "agreement" that the bassist and rhythm section have going into a playing situation. That said, a good bassist knows when to turn up and play lightly, or to turn down (or off) and dig in.

 

[Don Kasper]

but there is more of a microscope on the sound when the amp is cranked.

I'm not fond of the mix here starting at the bass solo (around 7:05) - they have the bass level cranked (noticeably), to compensate for the inherent drop in overall volume during a bass solo. This makes for a very unbalanced and unrealistic mix, as it is a bit like simultaneously looking (with each eye) thru a microscope and a telescope. Sheesh! (NOT the fault of the musicians, here.)
I like when a recorded track emulates what actually occurred in the room, dynamically speaking, even if it means asking the listener to "lean in" a bit. This would assume, of course, that the mixer/engineer is familiar and comfortable with styles of music and musicians that may have wide-ranging dynamics in the performance.
There is also a tendency to have the drums "shrunk" in the mix, as well. Anyone who has stood next to a drumset, (even while being played "tastefully", with some dynamic restraint), knows how much raw sound is produced.
Finally, in the performance above, at times RM appears to be using a more conventional RH pizz technique while walking - he uses the side of his first finger, (very "gut-like"), in a few of the frames. He sure sounds great (more aggressive?) here, esp. his quarter notes. Playing with a drummer will do that to a feller.
OK. I'm done.
Thanks.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Just a few random thoughts -
I've never heard Neal Miner's playing described as lacking in nuance, much like I've never heard him play with an amp.

I was fortunate to be able to hear Red at Bradley's, playing with (I'm pretty sure) Kirk Lightsey; it was summer and the AC started tripping the circuit breaker so the power would keep cutting out, often in the middle of the set. There was no affect on Red's sound when the amp would cut out.

 

[Paul Warburton]

Just a few random thoughts -
I've never heard Neal Miner's playing described as lacking in nuance, much like I've never heard him play with an amp.

I was fortunate to be able to hear Red at Bradley's, playing with (I'm pretty sure) Kirk Lightsey; it was summer and the AC started tripping the circuit breaker so the power would keep cutting out, often in the middle of the set. There was no affect on Red's sound when the amp would cut out.

Ed, I remember you telling this story years ago and actually was going to post it, giving you credit of course, when the dust in here finally settled. Thanks; great timing.

 

[John Goldsby]

Just a few random thoughts -
I've never heard Neal Miner's playing described as lacking in nuance, much like I've never heard him play with an amp.

I was fortunate to be able to hear Red at Bradley's, playing with (I'm pretty sure) Kirk Lightsey; it was summer and the AC started tripping the circuit breaker so the power would keep cutting out, often in the middle of the set. There was no affect on Red's sound when the amp would cut out.

I think players (like Neal) who don't use an amp bring a detailed level of nuance into the music — they bring the band into their sonic world and encourage everyone to listen more.

I think it's dangerous to have an amp loud *when the player isn't in control of the instrument.* That seems to happen quite often.

Red always talked about getting the amplified sound to just mirror his acoustic sound . . . he did it in a very "crazy inventor" kind of way with all of those pickups and the mixer. He did achieve his goal, though—his amplified sound was like his acoustic sound.

Thanks for the story about Bradley's Ed — I wish I had been there!

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I miss Bradley's....

It's funny, when I heard Buster with SPHERE at the Vanguard a number of years back (Gary Bartz version) - I had always assumed that Buster's sound was primarily amp, but his amp kept crapping out on him and, as above, the bass just didn't sound any different. The smallest drop in volume, but no change in tone at all.

 

[vilshofen]

My favorite use of the word "churlish" in history can be found at 2:40 here:

Chris,
How could you not remember?

 

[Don Kasper]

From 1961 - still tuning in Fourths - a cool little arrangement of a Blues in F.
Note RM's long glissandi and triplet-ly pull-offs in his solo - both very "Ron Carter-ish".

 

[MR PC]

I love that Blues in The Closet performance, I'm not so used to hearing those players with the brighter tones. Dig it. The pu under the fingerboard looks like something I used to see Accordion players using. Another one like that which was more compact was the C-Ducer, a strip of piezo designed to be mounted on soundboards..piano, Harp, accordion, ect.

 

[John Goldsby]

From 1961 - still tuning in Fourths - a cool little arrangement of a Blues in F.
Note RM's long glissandi and triplet-ly pull-offs in his solo - both very "Ron Carter-ish".

I love this album . . . thanks, Don!

 

[Paul Warburton]

Thanks, Don, for the "Tripplin' Awhile" clip, composed by Harold Land.
A word about this large Tyrolean bass on the cover, indeed tuned in fourths but Red's great luthier, Paul Toenniges, added the low B string adapting it to a five string. The G D A and E strings were all the legendary Lycon strings and I don't remember the brand he used for the low B. The four plated machines, Paul had stored in a drawer, taken off of an unrepairable Joseph Bohmann and are a four string version of my ex-five string Bohmann bass. If you magnify Don's clip of the album cover, you can see them clearly. Red sold this bass later to John Heard who had Paul defeat the low B machine, turning it back into four.
Here's a clip of the title tune by Red, "Hear Ye, Hear Ye, Hear Ye" with Red bowing in unison with Harold on the head in 6/8 with a great, but rare, arco solo by Red. Personel: Red, Harold, Carmell Jones, Frank Strazzeri and ex-Nat Cole drummer, Leon Petties.

 

[John Goldsby]

Interesting tidbits, Paul — thanks!

Red could really play great with the bow . . . he had a long story about his bow getting stolen on a gig. It was his favorite bow, and after that (so he said), he could never bring himself to use another bow.

 

[travshorts]

John Abercrombie is carrying on this "soft touch/amplified" approach - he eschews(!) the pick in favor of the thumb (and, NOT attacking each individual note in a phrase.) I believe this produces his very Legato/connected sound - almost like the uninterrupted breath of a horn player thru the instrument.
JA has been one of my favorites for decades - he always has great bands, interesting original compositions, No Fear Of Technology, as well as the occasional, refreshing, nod to the "Standards" tradition.
Thanks.

His record "39 steps" has been constantly playing in my car since it came out.

 

[Don Kasper]

Thanks, Don, for the "Tripplin' Awhile" clip, composed by Harold Land.
A word about this large Tyrolean bass on the cover, indeed tuned in fourths but Red's great luthier, Paul Toenniges, added the low B string adapting it to a five string. The G D A and E strings were all the legendary Lycon strings and I don't remember the brand he used for the low B. The four plated machines, Paul had stored in a drawer, taken off of an unrepairable Joseph Bohmann and are a four string version of my ex-five string Bohmann bass. If you magnify Don's clip of the album cover, you can see them clearly. Red sold this bass later to John Heard who had Paul defeat the low B machine, turning it back into four.
Here's a clip of the title tune by Red, "Hear Ye, Hear Ye, Hear Ye" with Red bowing in unison with Harold on the head in 6/8 with a great, but rare, arco solo by Red. Personel: Red, Harold, Carmell Jones, Frank Strazzeri and ex-Nat Cole drummer, Leon Petties.

Coupla things -

Both Red and Frank are singing (audibly) their solos. Who Knew?!

Pianist Frank Strazzeri had a long-running duo gig here in LA about 10 years ago. I wound up on the sub-list and was lucky enough to be asked back - (not everybody was...) Frank was in his mid 70's at that time and had MANY 1000's of tunes, all written (in pencil!) in his microscopic calligraphy, usually 3 or 4 tunes to a page of manuscript paper! I would (attempt to) read over his shoulder, AND have my eyez and earz on 11. I would always try to remember the names of tunes that we played, to try and research and learn Frank's changes and arrangement before the next time - Haunted Heart, I'm A Fool To Want You, Frankie and Johnnie, This Is New...
Besides the music, the "between tunes" stories were like an oral jazz history lesson.
He could also be, shall we say, (extremely) Cranky, and refreshingly opinionated.
A truly Beautiful Cat.

Paul - was there a feeling that, in the 50's, 60's, 70's, the West Coast scene was somewhat isolated from the NY scene, and that NY was the center of the jazz universe? (as it is now, IMO).
Thanks for your time and expertise.

 

[Don Kasper]

OT Flashback!
Here is a tune that Frank Strazzeri often played - He thought Ray Bryant was highly underrated as a pianist:

 

[Paul Warburton]

OT Flashback!
Here is a tune that Frank Strazzeri often played - He thought Ray Bryant was highly underrated as a pianist:

Man, I used to be king of OT around here in the old days and it's even one of TBDB siggies, but you have taken it to another level. Compared with you, I am but a pansy.