Joni Mitchell on Jaco Pastorius

[TonyP-]

People start drinking and doing drugs for various reasons but some find that they just can't stop and it's not only a matter of willpower.

I'm sure...There are addictions both mental and physical that are hard to break. Ok...Fine...Then get help. (Wither its drugs or a mental disorder)

Nothing wrong with getting Help.

Here is question...Why start then???

I'll be honest...This topic is close to home for me since I have a functioning drug addict brother. I think the only reason why He is still alive is because He had enough money to save himself when He was a bit younger and a saint of a wife.

I apologize to anyone if I sound harsh, thats just my take.

 

[dougjwray]

People start drinking and doing drugs for various reasons but some find that they just can't stop and it's not only a matter of willpower. Some drug addicts don't like alcohol and many alcoholics don't like other drugs. It's all a matter of what they "need", and after a certain point, it's a real need- physical or psychological. Some people can stop on their own, some never can, or will. Many want to stop but for some reason, it's incredibly hard. From the outside, it looks like weakness but from the inside, it's hard to stop. Sometimes, it's as simple as making a decision, based on some specific rationale and sometimes, it's just a matter of life or death- keep doing it and the person will die. If they choose life over death, they stop.

I agree- Jonas Hellborg is a killer bass player. I saw him with John McLaughlin in about '84.

Very well said. Some serious alcoholics say that they don't even like the taste of alcohol.
And we're learning more all the time about the chemistry of the brain and how it relates to mental illness. I had a bipolar friend who self-medicated himself with marijuana, just so that he could relax enough to be with other people. He never seemed high, even though he smoked ridiculous amounts of dope.
And remember the stories about Jimi Hendrix? He would take two hits of acid-- one to bring him around to "normal", and then one additional one to trip on.

I think it helps to try to understand these realities before immediately assuming that people (especially many creative people) are simply being self-indulgent.

 

[TRichardsbass]

Guess I'll never get it. I admire what people have seen in Jaco, but I never really liked anything he did. I didn't find his work any more revolutionary then Andy Fraser or even Colin Moulding.

I always found him better in other's groups then by himself, and when I watch a lot of the YouTube performances when he "solos" but just bangs on the bass and makes random noises, I don't feel it or believe its genius.

Jaco was talented, for sure. Jaco was consumed by demons, absolutely. Like Jamerson as well, he succumbed to those demons. As history is always kind to those who have passed, I feel a lot of the "worship" now is based on other's perceptions, not the live, real person. I liked what Joni said. She painted him as a flawed human, and a flawed bass player. I'd much rather know this Jaco then the "bass god" Jaco, any day.

 

[Ewo]

I always found him better in other's groups then by himself, and when I watch a lot of the YouTube performances when he "solos" but just bangs on the bass and makes random noises, I don't feel it or believe its genius.

I've seen some of those clips, too; my guess is that he was on the skids, then.

Tom, give a listen to his first solo album--the cover shot is a close-up of his face. How's Donna Lee grab ya?

 

[TRichardsbass]

I've seen some of those clips, too; my guess is that he was on the skids, then.

Tom, give a listen to his first solo album--the cover shot is a close-up of his face. How's Donna Lee grab ya?

Nice, but doesn't really move me like his legend says it should. I have purchased and still own all the "bass god" albums, from Jaco, to Jonas, to Manring, to Laswell, to Egan, to even Brunel and former TBer Berlin. I even have Scott LaFaro. None of them grab me. Guess I'll never get the technical jazz stuff. Heck, even my bud Stu Hamm's solo stuff is 50/50. Val Johnson, same.

Do I wish I had their skills on the instrument? YOU BET! Do I really enjoy listening to a lot of it? Hell no.

I even purchased the vinyl of "Bitches Brew" because Sting said it blew him away. Guess my problem is that I wasn't high while listening to it. There are some things I listen to and I still wonder why they think Miles Davis, especially his more "current" stuff, is so revolutionary.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I'm sure...There are addictions both mental and physical that are hard to break. Ok...Fine...Then get help. (Wither its drugs or a mental disorder)

Nothing wrong with getting Help.

Here is question...Why start then???

I'll be honest...This topic is close to home for me since I have a functioning drug addict brother. I think the only reason why He is still alive is because He had enough money to save himself when He was a bit younger and a saint of a wife.

I apologize to anyone if I sound harsh, thats just my take.

Just an observation...

I always wonder why some people choose to see things in such a simplistic fashion. If you're hungry, eat. If you're cold, put some clothes on. If you're mentally ill, get help.

I don't get it. I've lived a relatively long life and rarely are things as cut and dried as some seem to need to think. Judging is easy, especially if you don't care about the details.


I know people who are addicts. They didn't all come to their addictions the same way so I wouldn't expect them all to follow a cookie cutter path out of them.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Nice, but doesn't really move me like his legend says it should. I have purchased and still own all the "bass god" albums, from Jaco, to Jonas, to Manring, to Laswell, to Egan, to even Brunel and former TBer Berlin. I even have Scott LaFaro. None of them grab me. Guess I'll never get the technical jazz stuff. Heck, even my bud Stu Hamm's solo stuff is 50/50. Val Johnson, same.

Do I wish I had their skills on the instrument? YOU BET! Do I really enjoy listening to a lot of it? Hell no.

I even purchased the vinyl of "Bitches Brew" because Sting said it blew him away. Guess my problem is that I wasn't high while listening to it. There are some things I listen to and I still wonder why they think Miles Davis, especially his more "current" stuff, is so revolutionary.

If it's music you don't like, I doubt that many would expect it to move you. Me, I can appreciate talent even in genres I don't particularly care for, which are few.

IMO context can and should play a big part in this. And more specifically your frame of reference. I don't know your age nor what types of music you're into. I'm not the biggest Jaco fan in the world but I do remember how bass playing was before he hit the scene and after him. Here's an extreme analogy:

Some older guys are reminiscing about Jesse Owens at the Berlin Olympics in 1932. Then someone younger says they don't get what the big deal is, Usain Bolt would smoke him.


The funniest thing is that many of the examples that the people who don't get Jaco usually cite... get Jaco. Completely


Jaco occupied a specific period of time. If he's to be judged, I'd hope that people would take that into consideration. Otherwise I'd guess I'd have to agree that the effects in The Attack of the Clones do blow away the original King Kong.

 

[dougjwray]

If it's music you don't like, I doubt that many would expect it to move you. Me, I can appreciate talent even in genres I don't particularly care for, which are few.

IMO context can and should play a big part in this. And more specifically your frame of reference. I don't know your age nor what types of music you're into. I'm not the biggest Jaco fan in the world but I do remember how bass playing was before he hit the scene and after him. Here's an extreme analogy:

Some older guys are reminiscing about Jesse Owens at the Berlin Olympics in 1932. Then someone younger says they don't get what the big deal is, Usain Bolt would smoke him.


The funniest thing is that many of the examples that the people who don't get Jaco usually cite... get Jaco. Completely


Jaco occupied a specific period of time. If he's to be judged, I'd hope that people would take that into consideration. Otherwise I'd guess I'd have to agree that the effects in The Attack of the Clones do blow away the original King Kong.

+10
Nice analogies!
One of the best things about living for a while is that you get to see all of the stages:

1976
Me: "This Jaco guy is probably the best EVER!"
Old guy: "Humph. He isn't doing anything Ray Brown couldn't do."

2011
Young guy: "Victor Wooten is probably the best EVER!"
Me (now the old guy): "He's great, but you should listen to Jaco to get some historical context."

2030
Young guy: "[X] is probably the best ever! What's so special about Victor Wooten, anyway?"
Old guy (previously the other young guy): "He's great, but you should really listen closely to Victor Wooten to get some historical context."
Me: "Er... ever listen to Ray Brown?"

 

[Mike Dimin]

+10
Nice analogies!
One of the best things about living for a while is that you get to see all of the stages:

1976
Me: "This Jaco guy is probably the best EVER!"
Old guy: "Humph. He isn't doing anything Ray Brown couldn't do."

2011
Young guy: "Victor Wooten is probably the best EVER!"
Me (now the old guy): "He's great, but you should listen to Jaco to get some historical context."

2030
Young guy: "[X] is probably the best ever! What's so special about Victor Wooten, anyway?"
Old guy (previously the other young guy): "He's great, but you should really listen closely to Victor Wooten to get some historical context."
Me: "Er... ever listen to Ray Brown?"

oh yeah!

 

[Roy Vogt]

I definitely wouldn't base my opinion on Jaco from Youtube clips. Instead, download or purchase (either way it's 10 bucks or less) his first solo album. Consider that he wrote and arranged pieces like "Kuru/Speak Like a Child" and "Forgotten Love" as well as "Portrait of Tracy" ( the only person I was aware of that had done anything close was Chris Squire with "The Fish" and that was overdubbed).
Also, "Heavy Weather" by Weather Report and "Hejira" by Joni Mitchell. That's $30 total or you can find the album clips on Youtube.
Basing opinions on an Artist by Youtube clips is sort of like that old story of The Blind Men and The Elephant sometimes.

 

[Mike Dimin]

I definitely wouldn't base my opinion on Jaco from Youtube clips. Instead, download or purchase (either way it's 10 bucks or less) his first solo album. Consider that he wrote and arranged pieces like "Kuru/Speak Like a Child" and "Forgotten Love" as well as "Portrait of Tracy" ( the only person I was aware of that had done anything close was Chris Squire with "The Fish" and that was overdubbed).
Also, "Heavy Weather" by Weather Report and "Hejira" by Joni Mitchell. That's $30 total or you can find the album clips on Youtube.
Basing opinions on an Artist by Youtube clips is sort of like that old story of The Blind Men and The Elephant sometimes.

Not to mention the horn arrangement on Dry Cleaner from Des Moines - that's also Jaco

 

[maxiegrant]

I don't really enjoy fusion jazz. Jaco's actual music is not something that I find myself drawn to. But, I cannot ignore his incredible talent. To me using 'Donna Lee' as some sort of marker of his talent is kind of misguided. Lots of people can play fast. At that speed, it is hard to tell if things are perfectly intonated, sloppy, or what.

But listen to him play the groove of "Come on, Come over" and tell me he isn't one bad-ass mofo of a bass player. Just listen to how he keeps that beat solid, tight, focused, and moving. The goes into the chorus and it's just like a bubbling brook of notes, like a cloud coming up out of the low end. It's astounding.

Jaco is and was an out-****ing-standing musician overall. Another piece that just blows my mind is Continuum. He starts doing these interval chords like 3rds and 6ths, I think what he's doing is playing the fifth on the E or A string, and the 3rd of the chord on the D or G string, and he just FLIES all over the fretboard popping out these amazing tones. And what amazes me is how long he goes on doing this, like he just never gets tired of it.


And of course, his tone is astounding. His timbre. His attack on the strings.

I'm sure...There are addictions both mental and physical that are hard to break. Ok...Fine...Then get help. (Wither its drugs or a mental disorder)

Nothing wrong with getting Help.

Here is question...Why start then???

I strongly advise you to stay away from people with depression. You are guaranteed to make their every problem worse.

I apologize to anyone if I sound harsh, thats just my take.

If you don't have anything useful to add, why not just keep your mouth shut? Then you won't have to apologize for sounding like you haven't got an ounce of empathy in your cold heart.

 

[MixBass]

What a great read. I adore Joni's creative command of language, for example when she uses "roadhog". It's good to hear her speak of the times when he was in the moment, in the conversation. That's the Jaco I choose to remember: supportive, spontaneous, and with complete command.

 

[smcgov]

Just an observation...

I always wonder why some people choose to see things in such a simplistic fashion. If you're hungry, eat. If you're cold, put some clothes on. If you're mentally ill, get help.

I don't get it. I've lived a relatively long life and rarely are things as cut and dried as some seem to need to think. Judging is easy, especially if you don't care about the details.


I know people who are addicts. They didn't all come to their addictions the same way so I wouldn't expect them all to follow a cookie cutter path out of them.

agreed....turn on hoarders and watch the success rates...try telling an OCD to stop cleaning and watch what happens, give a hooker 300 bux and what will she be doing in 2 days....it's a disease and a physical compulsion/mental obsession, in the throes of it you don't just have a rational thought and think, hmm...I'll just walk down to rehab now" while your brain is scheming to get more (without your permission).

Do you think all these thousands of people leaving the earth early due to drugs and alcohol are in the same rational state of mind that you are in? In the time between their last drug use and the next, most of their minds are obsessed with one thing, the NEXT time...so although you get mad that they pick up again, they are powerless. You cannot assume that because you feel good when you have a beer or two you that alcoholics or drug addicts are having a grand time while they're on the train. Having this knowledge doesn't mean you have to be an enabler, it just means that you understand it's a disease and at least have some empathy, you can still have tough love, but at least make an attempt to understand that your fellow human is not destroying their life because it's "fun".

 

[Mike Dimin]

When Jaco suffered from his bipolar disorder there was little remedy, there were fewer who recognized it as a disease. We are not talking about 2011 here. Getting help for a mental disorder in the 80's was near impossible. Sufferers were left to medicate themselves, usually with horrendous results. I am sure it didn't help that Jaco's larger than life personality drove away those who might have helped.

He continues to be my main inspiration. He opened the doors for so many of us. Every player today, who has taken the instrument in a new direction has recognized the impact that Jaco has had on their development

 

[HeadyVan Halen]

Who knows? I can't help but wonder if his claims of "I'm the greatest" was due to a huge insecurity. Not knocking the man, I think he was an innovator and I'll never come close to what he did. But I found out a long time ago that the ones with the biggest mouths are the ones who are most afraid.

Even with claims of "it ain't bragging if you can back it up" strikes me as "look at me!! Pay attention to me!!" Only problem with proclaiming yourself as the greatest is that you better keep proving yourself over and over. Then when you can't, when others come along who can do what you did and more....it's crash and burn time.

Again, I'm not knocking the man and what he accomplished. Just trying to understand those folks.

Most of the time, but then there are exceptions to the exceptions of the rules...
Jaco and Ali come to mind..they were both right!

 

[funkybass4ever]

great post thank you so much! Made my day on a cloudy cool So. Cal morning. Jaco -before the drugs took him over -must have been a blast to know. He was a true innovator and his tone is the voice of our soul.

 

[JimK]

Oh, that is from Musician-Player and Listener. Did Bill write the article?

I have that old Musician mag (Sting is on the cover...another interesting read there)...IIRC, Milkowski did the Joni article within that magazine, too.

Good catch there, Roy (your long-term memory is intact).

 

[gre107]

I actually bought the Mingus album last week. It was the first time I ever heard it. I can't believe that I never listened to it before! What a great recording!

 

[Roy Vogt]

great post thank you so much! Made my day on a cloudy cool So. Cal morning. Jaco -before the drugs took him over -must have been a blast to know. He was a true innovator and his tone is the voice of our soul.

He was an amazing person!