Just curious... Can anyone here sight-read tab?

[dkelley]

Right. The bass is also a transposing instrument, and the fact that standard notation written for bass is transposed an octave from concert pitch does not make that standard notation into tablature.

exactly. Really good point... one that I take for granted all the time, but is very relevant here.

Yea, lots of bassists looking at bass music don't realize that our instruments sound one octave lower than written (this is historically the case from the ancient history of the double bass... how it was "doubling" the written part and sounding an octave lower). What's funny though is that low brass music (tuba, for example) is (I think? it's been a few years since I looked at any tuba music) is actually written on the correct note (the lower octave). So if you read tuba music on bass, you are reading the real note you are playing, but most of us really get confused by it since it would be all in the low ledgerlines for typical bass parts.

but yea, not tab. Agreed

 

[dkelley]

It's the trend, now.

It has to be easy. Effortless. Dumb it down. Or else nobody wants it.

sad, but there IS a trend that way for sure.

 

[jdthaddeus]

It seems like most of the people bashing tab can't read it very well. Just because you can't read tab efficiently, doesn't mean it sucks. It just means you haven't practiced it enough.

The rules are the same for standard notation:. Poorly written notation doesn't give you all the info. Poorly written tab doesn't give you all the info. Comparing well-written notation to poorly-written tab is obviously unfair.


My biggest question is ....I can read both very fast, fast enough to take a new piece of tab, glance at it, my band starts playing and I play it. ......So instead of bashing tab because you can't read it, why not learn both? (The answer is obvious: people don't like change, they don't like new things, so they'll disparage anything that threatens their little bubble of comfort).

 

[Febs]

My biggest question is ....I can read both, so instead of bashing tab because you can't read it, why not learn both? (The answer is obvious: people don't like change, they don't like new things, so they'll disparage anything that threatens their little bubble of comfort).

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly can read tab. I just rarely need to, and I've literally never need to on any paying gig.

 

[vindibona1]

It would be good to be able to read tab well, but the older you get the harder it is, especially because from a string standpoint where a player orients EADG, the GDAG orientation of tab is disconcerting, though I understand the concept is to make the upper tab notations higher in pitch. Personal orientation of strings is an interesting discussion as I am convinced if someone think of the 4 string bass as GDAE, adapting to a 5 string is way easier because you are just adding one more string. If you think EADG (as I do) then it requires an entire shift in thinking and feel. JMO

 

[JimmyM]

exactly. Really good point... one that I take for granted all the time, but is very relevant here.

Yea, lots of bassists looking at bass music don't realize that our instruments sound one octave lower than written (this is historically the case from the ancient history of the double bass... how it was "doubling" the written part and sounding an octave lower). What's funny though is that low brass music (tuba, for example) is (I think? it's been a few years since I looked at any tuba music) is actually written on the correct note (the lower octave). So if you read tuba music on bass, you are reading the real note you are playing, but most of us really get confused by it since it would be all in the low ledgerlines for typical bass parts.

but yea, not tab. Agreed

I knew that

 

[JimmyM]

It seems like most of the people bashing tab can't read it very well. Just because you can't read tab efficiently, doesn't mean it sucks. It just means you haven't practiced it enough.

The rules are the same for standard notation:. Poorly written notation doesn't give you all the info. Poorly written tab doesn't give you all the info. Comparing well-written notation to poorly-written tab is obviously unfair.


My biggest question is ....I can read both very fast, fast enough to take a new piece of tab, glance at it, my band starts playing and I play it. ......So instead of bashing tab because you can't read it, why not learn both? (The answer is obvious: people don't like change, they don't like new things, so they'll disparage anything that threatens their little bubble of comfort).

I don’t bother with it because everything I need to read for gigs is already written in notation, and I don’t need tab to figure out anything I need to commit to memory.

That doesn’t mean I don’t know how to read it, though. It means I just don’t find it useful for anything I may do.

 

[LBS-bass]

sad, but there IS a trend that way for sure.

I don't think that's the case at all. I think the vast majority of people are learners rather than pros. Some have learned a little and they're hobbyists, but few are reading music as a means to get a real job done.

Those who play professionally tend to fall into two camps: There are the people who learned to read and went to school and did everything the proper way, and there are those who had the ability to pick things up by ear, maybe they learned to read too, or later, or maybe they didn't, but they're not worried so much about notation because their ears are big enough to learn what they need to learn.

Those in the former group know how to read standard notation. Those in the latter group may, or they may read TAB, or they may read both, but it isn't as important to them because they've gotten their job done without it.

Not everyone who doesn't read can do every job. They can't do jobs that require coming in and playing cold. But those people with a good ear can do some jobs, if not most jobs, and a lot more jobs than many want to give them credit for.

Everyone else is really in the learner/hobbyist camp. And it's absolutely right that there are resources that meet them where they are.

 

[Cal03]

that's an interesting point, although I disagree with your categorization of it being "in essence tablature".

Transposing instruments have always transposed what is played on their own. I wouldn't call it "in essence tablature", since tab is a different notation system completely from standard notation. Transposing instruments play standard notation a certain interval off (higher or lower, like C comes out as Bb)) than the "concert" pitch (where C comes out as C). Nearly all instruments you blow through (in most common musical groups) are not in C, with the exception of some double reed instruments, and an occasional bass clef brass instrument.

That doesn't make the notation equivalent to tab. Tablature notation would be showing one line for each key or valve on the instrument, rather than the notes on a scale, and in the case of wind instruments, most particularly for valve brass instruments, it would also have to have an indication of which harmonic you play via variations in air speed, lip tension, air hole size, aim of the breath (for wind instruments like flute), and so forth. Playing the right note on trumpet, french horn etc is REALLY difficult for many people at first, because there are only 3 valves normally, and 12 notes in an octave, and multiple octaves. How would you write that in tab?

So it ain't tablature at all.

Good point, I may have been overstating the analogy, which itself really only applies for that very specific situation I mentioned about EADG vs. BEAD. If I take the analogy too far, then tuning down by a half step would mean transposing in B, and I'm sure no one wants to read that!

exactly. Really good point... one that I take for granted all the time, but is very relevant here.

Yea, lots of bassists looking at bass music don't realize that our instruments sound one octave lower than written (this is historically the case from the ancient history of the double bass... how it was "doubling" the written part and sounding an octave lower). What's funny though is that low brass music (tuba, for example) is (I think? it's been a few years since I looked at any tuba music) is actually written on the correct note (the lower octave). So if you read tuba music on bass, you are reading the real note you are playing, but most of us really get confused by it since it would be all in the low ledgerlines for typical bass parts.

but yea, not tab. Agreed

Funny enough, I have a real hard time reading something written high on bass because of too many ledger lines above the staff. I find it much easier to actually notate it at sounding pitch. Of course, one may ask why I'm wasting my time way up the neck anyway...

 

[JimmyM]

Good point, I may have been overstating the analogy, which itself really only applies for that very specific situation I mentioned about EADG vs. BEAD. If I take the analogy too far, then tuning down by a half step would mean transposing in B, and I'm sure no one wants to read that!



Funny enough, I have a real hard time reading something written high on bass because of too many ledger lines above the staff. I find it much easier to actually notate it at sounding pitch. Of course, one may ask why I'm wasting my time way up the neck anyway...

Not me. Play up the neck. Sounds great at times. But the ledger line notes are only a struggle if you don’t practice them. Otherwise they’re no harder to read than any.

 

[Seanmo]

When I am working on a song for Rocksmith, I have the waveform for just the isolated bass right in front of me and can place the appropriate note right above that part of the waveform making a highly accurate "transcription" of the song. I could export this work back to GuitarPro and create nice looking sheet music, but I don't ever have the need to since I will only be playing the song in Rocksmith (in this case "Silly Love Songs" by Paul McCartney - you may recognize the intro into the first verse being depicted here with ghost notes that are all but impossible to hear any other way).

I can't remember the last time I was able to take a "professional" bass transcription of a song, enter it into GuitarPro, synchronize it as above, and not have to change a fair amount to make it more accurate. I understand that "music source separation" software (which uses frequency analysis and machine learning to create stems for bass, vocals, etc.) is relatively new, but I have yet to encounter anyone else using it to make their transcriptions. I also think it is a shame that some of the most accurate transcriptions of popular tunes ever made are hidden away inside of DLC files for a "game" that most of you would never consider "playing." I do wish Rocksmith had the ability to alternatively show notation and/or note values as I'd be a much better bassist if I had that information in front of me for the 4000 or so songs I've been playing over the past 7 years.

I haven't read through all the replies and this may well have been pointed out, but Paul McCartney can't sight read notation or tab. Is he still considered a pro?

 

[nnnnnn]

Legit question: Are these widely available in printed form?

I know I already responded to you the other day, but I'll add a quick follow-up because I just found an old transcription book on my shelf at home. It was published in 1988 (i.e., pre-World Wide Web; I was a teenager). I took a photo of a few bars:

(I'm happy to admit that not all publishers do it this way, but this is what I mean when I say "proper tab": note duration, rests, bends, slides, etc., all fully notated.)

 

[Manticore]

Not me. Play up the neck. Sounds great at times. But the ledger line notes are only a struggle if you don’t practice them. Otherwise they’re no harder to read than any.

I find it a little tough to practice reading up high with the ledger lines because it is so often notated to play an octave above notes written on the staff. If ledger lines were used more often it would be easier to keep current. Otherwise I agree; the bass has notes up there because sometimes they sound perfect! Play them.

 

[Manticore]

It seems like most of the people bashing tab can't read it very well. Just because you can't read tab efficiently, doesn't mean it sucks. It just means you haven't practiced it enough.

The rules are the same for standard notation:. Poorly written notation doesn't give you all the info. Poorly written tab doesn't give you all the info. Comparing well-written notation to poorly-written tab is obviously unfair.


My biggest question is ....I can read both very fast, fast enough to take a new piece of tab, glance at it, my band starts playing and I play it. ......So instead of bashing tab because you can't read it, why not learn both? (The answer is obvious: people don't like change, they don't like new things, so they'll disparage anything that threatens their little bubble of comfort).

There's really nothing to learning to read tab efficiently; it's designed to get folks with little knowledge of music or the fretboard up and running quickly...which is cool in one way. I can read tab well, but if I have the part recorded it's just as fast to learn it by ear, so nothing is gained. Learning to read standard notation really isn't that hard. Learn standard notation and where the notes are on the fingerboard and a wide world of learning and playing opportunities open up. Learn tab and you might end up hampering your ability to learn by ear by leaning on a crutch. It doesn't damage you in any way, but I think it will slow your ability to trust your ears rather than your eyes.

 

[nnnnnn]

It would be good to be able to read tab well, but the older you get the harder it is, especially because from a string standpoint where a player orients EADG, the GDAG orientation of tab is disconcerting, though I understand the concept is to make the upper tab notations higher in pitch.

The order of the string lines in tab matches what you see if you look down at the fingerboard while playing: you see the low E string at the bottom and G string at the top, because although of course the G string is closest to the floor it is furthest from your eyes - this perspective makes everything upsidedown; it's only other people looking at you play who see the low E string at the top.

 

[dkelley]

I knew that

of course! :-D

 

[dkelley]

I don't think that's the case at all. I think the vast majority of people are learners rather than pros. Some have learned a little and they're hobbyists, but few are reading music as a means to get a real job done.

Those who play professionally tend to fall into two camps: There are the people who learned to read and went to school and did everything the proper way, and there are those who had the ability to pick things up by ear, maybe they learned to read too, or later, or maybe they didn't, but they're not worried so much about notation because their ears are big enough to learn what they need to learn.

Those in the former group know how to read standard notation. Those in the latter group may, or they may read TAB, or they may read both, but it isn't as important to them because they've gotten their job done without it.

Not everyone who doesn't read can do every job. They can't do jobs that require coming in and playing cold. But those people with a good ear can do some jobs, if not most jobs, and a lot more jobs than many want to give them credit for.

Everyone else is really in the learner/hobbyist camp. And it's absolutely right that there are resources that meet them where they are.

that I completely agree with, and it has always been that way. Although I personally feel that this concept doesn't change the point that I was agreeing with in the previous poster's comment.

That concept is a trend I have encountered in general, with my own teen kids and the current teen (and slightly older) generation, where there is a general drift towards learning quickly or not bothering to sustain, self teaching through youtube and similar sources using the shortest path possible (which is smart, of course, but missed a bunch of stuff that used to be recognized and invaluable that you'd get from private teachers), and similar concepts that are trending more and more.

That is what I was agreeing to. I do agree with everything you said, which has always been the case and will probably always been the case. Lots of amazing players have been unable to read but played amazingly well by ear and worked as session players, even, with legendary examples like Jimmy Page but obviously many thousands who are unknowns to most of us.

 

[dkelley]

Good point, I may have been overstating the analogy, which itself really only applies for that very specific situation I mentioned about EADG vs. BEAD. If I take the analogy too far, then tuning down by a half step would mean transposing in B, and I'm sure no one wants to read that!



Funny enough, I have a real hard time reading something written high on bass because of too many ledger lines above the staff. I find it much easier to actually notate it at sounding pitch. Of course, one may ask why I'm wasting my time way up the neck anyway...

LoL awesome points, both

I'm so used to reading high ledger lines on violin that it's my comfort zone to go up the neck and read high up, but I'm probably weird. Well, I AM weird, but I mean in that specific way.