Jack Bruce is the reason I picked up a bass.
As for Beware Mr Baker, amazing film.
One of my favorite lines by Ginger, John Bonham could not swing a bag of **** over his head. Moon too.
Gotta love Ginger.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Just finished reading Jack Bruce's autobiography.
- Thread starter thebeerleader
- Start date
Jack Bruce is the reason I picked up a bass.
As for Beware Mr Baker, amazing film.
One of my favorite lines by Ginger, John Bonham could not swing a bag of **** over his head. Moon too.
Gotta love Ginger.
Jack Bruce is the reason I picked up a bass.
As for Beware Mr Baker, amazing film.
One of my favorite lines by Ginger, John Bonham could not swing a bag of **** over his head. Moon too.
Gotta love Ginger.
After 7 pages of this and watching a ton of you tube vides - I don't think Baker was better than Bonham or Moon.
More of a "musician" - yes. Able to deliver a jaw dropping rock and roll beat - less so.
And for Baker to be constantly insulting his peers, sounds like a touch of insecurity.
I'm glad to have learned more about him. Interesting dude and amazing musician.
...somewhere in that Bruce autiobio, Pete Brown mentions that his favourite Bruce band was The Graham Bond Organization.
Live? Brown sez they were better than Cream.
Organ-Bass-Drums-Sax
...no guitar.
Not entirely true--
John McLaughlin was their guitarist for awhile. There are recordings of him with them, live at a London club called Klooks Kleek. They were released under the title "Solid Bond", around 1971 or so.
Watched "The making of Desraeli gears", a 47 minute video on you tube. Jack Bruce did use a Long Horn Danelectro and it looks like a Fender 6 string bass besides the Gibson EB3.
Man... Ginger Baker is something else. One of the greats but what a grumby old fart.
Man... Ginger Baker is something else. One of the greats but what a grumby old fart.
That was post-Cream, right? Brown, IIRC, was talking about the pre-Cream Graham Bond Organization.
Nope, this was around 1964 or so. Jack did record the album "Things We Like" with McLaughlin, Dick Heckstall-Smith and Jon Hiseman during the dying days of Cream, in 1968. It's avant-garde and post-bop jazz with Jack on upright bass. I believe it was also released around 1970 or '71.
OK. Got my wires crossed-
In Bruce's bio (pp 66-67 or so), it mentions that Bond-Baker-Bruce quit Alexis Corner to start their own thing. Soon after, a young/unknown John McLaughlin was added. At this time, McLaughlin was known as a player of "polite Jazz" (that would surely change). About 6 months later, Heckstall-Smith quit Alexis Corner...Mclaughlin was dropped & the 3 Bs w/ Heckstall-Smith became the GBO.
In Cream: The Legendary Sixties Supergroup by Chris Welch...p37 or so-
Pete Brown sez-
"It (GBO) was my favourite band. It was a mixture of Muddy Waters, Charlie Mingus, & Roland Kirk - all the things I loved rolled into one, and becoming something else. They were the most exciting band ever. In fact, I preferred them to Cream live. Some of the studio things Cream did were wonderful, but I was more into the GBO live. It was less guitar-oriented & more horn & organ-driven".
Sorry about the confusion...
(I really like Things We Like; glad I did not but it back in the '70s...)
In Bruce's bio (pp 66-67 or so), it mentions that Bond-Baker-Bruce quit Alexis Corner to start their own thing. Soon after, a young/unknown John McLaughlin was added. At this time, McLaughlin was known as a player of "polite Jazz" (that would surely change). About 6 months later, Heckstall-Smith quit Alexis Corner...Mclaughlin was dropped & the 3 Bs w/ Heckstall-Smith became the GBO.
In Cream: The Legendary Sixties Supergroup by Chris Welch...p37 or so-
Pete Brown sez-
"It (GBO) was my favourite band. It was a mixture of Muddy Waters, Charlie Mingus, & Roland Kirk - all the things I loved rolled into one, and becoming something else. They were the most exciting band ever. In fact, I preferred them to Cream live. Some of the studio things Cream did were wonderful, but I was more into the GBO live. It was less guitar-oriented & more horn & organ-driven".
Sorry about the confusion...
(I really like Things We Like; glad I did not but it back in the '70s...)
OK. Got my wires crossed-
In Bruce's bio (pp 66-67 or so), it mentions that Bond-Baker-Bruce quit Alexis Corner to start their own thing. Soon after, a young/unknown John McLaughlin was added. At this time, McLaughlin was known as a player of "polite Jazz" (that would surely change). About 6 months later, Heckstall-Smith quit Alexis Corner...Mclaughlin was dropped & the 3 Bs w/ Heckstall-Smith became the GBO.
In Cream: The Legendary Sixties Supergroup by Chris Welch...p37 or so-
Pete Brown sez-
"It (GBO) was my favourite band. It was a mixture of Muddy Waters, Charlie Mingus, & Roland Kirk - all the things I loved rolled into one, and becoming something else. They were the most exciting band ever. In fact, I preferred them to Cream live. Some of the studio things Cream did were wonderful, but I was more into the GBO live. It was less guitar-oriented & more horn & organ-driven".
Sorry about the confusion...
(I really like Things We Like; glad I did not but it back in the '70s...)
Okay, that completely makes sense. I guess the actual Graham Bond Organisation formed after Bond, Baker, Bruce, Heckstall-Smith and McLaughlin recorded together.
Anyone that tries to claim Keith Moon is in the same class as Baker is high, or a fanboy. Again, refer to my Hi-Hat comment on like page 1.
Baker could use a hi-hat properly.
Moon never learned to.
This is not a minor matter, it is fundamental to playing the drums like a normal person. Keith Moon was INCAPABLE of sounding like a normal drummer. His lack of dedication/inability to sit still and do anything constructive prevented him from being anything but a super hyper-active guy, beating up drums. If you can find a SINGLE recorded instance, live or in the studio, of Moon actually using a Hi-Hat, please post it, prove me wrong.
(Please note, Substitute does not count as there's a version with a session drummer who does use a Hi-Hat.)
Read the bio by his assistant, it pretty much confirms it. Lot of raw talent, no focus, no dedication, no direction.
That's why he was awesome when he was young and became abysmal when he was out of shape and older. Seriously watch the footage filmed live before he died. He can barely play; without the hyper, amphetamine fueled energy of his youth he just falls apart behind the kit. Again, read the bio, this was a man literally fueled by libido, self importance, alcohol and whatever drugs were handy. Dedication to music or really actual appreciation of it was unfortunately quite low on his list of priorities and his playing and lack of effort in learning to play, properly clearly shows that.
These reasons are why Baker could perform well at the 2005 Cream reunion. He learned to play, and cared about his instrument, so he's practiced around any physical decline. If Moon had lived that long you can be sure that he would have continued to decline in ability, unless he literally sat down and started learning rudiments, etc, from scratch.
I'm not arguing that Moon does not sound good (I think he sounds amazing at times), or that the Who did or did not make amazing music. Just saying that Moon never learned to play properly, and Baker did, as a result its hard to pretend that Moon can compare. He's a hack, Baker isn't, period.
Baker could use a hi-hat properly.
Moon never learned to.
This is not a minor matter, it is fundamental to playing the drums like a normal person. Keith Moon was INCAPABLE of sounding like a normal drummer. His lack of dedication/inability to sit still and do anything constructive prevented him from being anything but a super hyper-active guy, beating up drums. If you can find a SINGLE recorded instance, live or in the studio, of Moon actually using a Hi-Hat, please post it, prove me wrong.
(Please note, Substitute does not count as there's a version with a session drummer who does use a Hi-Hat.)
Read the bio by his assistant, it pretty much confirms it. Lot of raw talent, no focus, no dedication, no direction.
That's why he was awesome when he was young and became abysmal when he was out of shape and older. Seriously watch the footage filmed live before he died. He can barely play; without the hyper, amphetamine fueled energy of his youth he just falls apart behind the kit. Again, read the bio, this was a man literally fueled by libido, self importance, alcohol and whatever drugs were handy. Dedication to music or really actual appreciation of it was unfortunately quite low on his list of priorities and his playing and lack of effort in learning to play, properly clearly shows that.
These reasons are why Baker could perform well at the 2005 Cream reunion. He learned to play, and cared about his instrument, so he's practiced around any physical decline. If Moon had lived that long you can be sure that he would have continued to decline in ability, unless he literally sat down and started learning rudiments, etc, from scratch.
I'm not arguing that Moon does not sound good (I think he sounds amazing at times), or that the Who did or did not make amazing music. Just saying that Moon never learned to play properly, and Baker did, as a result its hard to pretend that Moon can compare. He's a hack, Baker isn't, period.
I'll just pick out one small part of that to comment on...
When I saw Cream at Madison Square Garden in 2005, Baker sounded rusty when they started; it even seemed that he couldn't quite get around the kit easily enough to play in the groove. But, by the time he got to "Toad", at the end of the show, he was completely warmed up and sounded fantastic. He was actually playing better than he did in 1968. It was pretty astonishing.
By contrast, Jack was obviously recovering from surgery and needed to sit for the last 1/4 of the show, and his playing clearly showed that he was reserving his energy. Clapton was in the best shape, physically, but was not going out on a limb, musically, the way he did all those years ago (no surprise there).
So... I agree: Ginger's respect and love for his craft are most likely what's responsible for his longevity. It's now almost eight years since that show, and Ginger's arthritic back has only gotten worse. Yet, he's currently touring the world with his jazz group.
When I saw Cream at Madison Square Garden in 2005, Baker sounded rusty when they started; it even seemed that he couldn't quite get around the kit easily enough to play in the groove. But, by the time he got to "Toad", at the end of the show, he was completely warmed up and sounded fantastic. He was actually playing better than he did in 1968. It was pretty astonishing.
By contrast, Jack was obviously recovering from surgery and needed to sit for the last 1/4 of the show, and his playing clearly showed that he was reserving his energy. Clapton was in the best shape, physically, but was not going out on a limb, musically, the way he did all those years ago (no surprise there).
So... I agree: Ginger's respect and love for his craft are most likely what's responsible for his longevity. It's now almost eight years since that show, and Ginger's arthritic back has only gotten worse. Yet, he's currently touring the world with his jazz group.
I think it was in Michael Bruce's bio (No More Mr. Nice Guy)...Bruce hired Moon to do some tracks...Bruce, other musicians, the engineer & the producer are listening to Moon.
One of 'em sez "...he's 1/2 a beat off. Can he hear what's in his headphones".
One of the others-
"Nah, that's the way he plays the song".
This whole running debate over better drums is rather humorous, largely because one of the best has been left out: Mitch Mitchell. Now that guy was phenomenal. Jazz influenced, similar to Baker in Cream.
However, in debating who's better, who's best (see what I did there?), when it comes down to skills as a drummer, I'd have to agree that Baker pretty much leaves everyone else from that era in the dust. I love The Who, don't get me wrong, and I think Moon's great, his energy definitely helped make up for his lack of technical proficiency, but skills-wise, I don't see how anyone could hold him to the same standard as Bruce. Really, the only contemporary I think comes close to Baker is Mitch Mitchell, as far as skill and finesse behind the kit. Bonham was great too, a powerhouse behind the kit, but stylistically he wasn't anywhere close to Baker, so that might be a bit harder to judge. So here's my ranking (sure it's my opinion, but I'm trying to base it on objective skills of the drummers, not who I like more)
Baker
Mitchell
Bruford
Peart
Bonham
Moon
And that's not even tossing in Paice or Nick Mason, or many others I could think of.
However, in debating who's better, who's best (see what I did there?), when it comes down to skills as a drummer, I'd have to agree that Baker pretty much leaves everyone else from that era in the dust. I love The Who, don't get me wrong, and I think Moon's great, his energy definitely helped make up for his lack of technical proficiency, but skills-wise, I don't see how anyone could hold him to the same standard as Bruce. Really, the only contemporary I think comes close to Baker is Mitch Mitchell, as far as skill and finesse behind the kit. Bonham was great too, a powerhouse behind the kit, but stylistically he wasn't anywhere close to Baker, so that might be a bit harder to judge. So here's my ranking (sure it's my opinion, but I'm trying to base it on objective skills of the drummers, not who I like more)
Baker
Mitchell
Bruford
Peart
Bonham
Moon
And that's not even tossing in Paice or Nick Mason, or many others I could think of.
When I first started playing with Jazz-oriented drummers...when they talked "Rock" guys, Mitch Mitchell was usually the 1st one mentioned.
Ringo & Moon are polar opposites. One was pretty much a backbeat drummer...the other was anything but that. Moon in The Beatles would not have worked...Ringo in The Who? Equally absurd.
It was a joke. "Who's the best drummer/bassist/guitarist" arguments are generally stupid and demand a good mocking.
But now his gene pool is and works great!
Agreed. Who back in the day woulda ever thunk that Ringo's kid would be in the Who someday.
