Just how many watts does a jazz bassist need?

[ClusterFlux]

I did mention upright is brand new and so is the fretless 5 string bass. I need a new amp because I have no bass amp at all yet.. just guitar amps. (Although I have to say the fretless bass does sound rather gorgeous through my Roland Jazz Chorus)

Aha... I thought you meant you played bass guitar, and that it was the fretless that was new. Your post said "another" upright bass, so I assumed you already play upright.

Anyway. I've seen jazz EB and DB players use all sorts of amps, all the way up to SVT with a Fridge. For what it's worth, Aguilar is the brand I've seen the most at jazz clubs. E.g. Smalls uses an Aguilar Tonehammer head with an SL 2x10 cab on a small riser, I believe Jazz Gallery has a similar setup.



Acoustic jazz trios also tend to play at relatively low volumes, so I don't know why you'd need massive watts. (E.g. In the above video, you can tell that the drummer is playing lightly compared to, say, a typical rock or funk drummer.) In my area, if you need anything louder than 200 watts, you're probably going to be playing through a PA system and/or IEM setup anyway. Thus, I'd make sure to get either an amp with a DI out, or a preamp-DI pedal.

One thing to keep in mind is that it's very difficult to play upright bass in loud settings. If the bass amp is too loud, you'll get tons of feedback. However, if you aren't loud enough to hear yourself, your intonation will be off.
Stopping Feedback in LOUD Settings

I'd guess anyone who is recommending an 800w amp is probably thinking about EB, not DB...

 

[Mark Karwan]

I've played a range of gigs on electric and upright bass for 20 years. The only Amp I own at this time is a Demeter Bass 800D. It's ridiculously powerful, and kind of awkward to use for home practice, studio, and combo gigs! I think that 400-500 watts for what you are doing would already give you lots of "clean head room." Maybe save a few bucks to spend finding the right pickup/mic for your bass?
I'm playing more gigs on upright lately and I find it kind of obnoxious to shlep the head and cab, and the blending preamp and mic etc along with the big bass. Set-up is awkward in tight spaces. For this reason I'd second the consideration of something like a Phil Jones suitcase. If this is your primary/only amp, it'll be easier to get in and out of the house, and adding another C4 for bigger/louder events will be easy enough, if you even need to. I used to own a C4 and it sounded great for upright. Another key for me was to use an HPF. I find I don't really "need" it for electric bass but I absolutely do for double bass. Since the Demeter head has no internal filter or frequency cutoff, my speaker (MAS 110) was jumping around like crazy and slapping the front grill! The Broughton always-on HPF works well and doesn't cost very much, but I now just use the HPF on my Grace preamp.

 

[pepj]

I have modular rigs from 400w to 1200w.
I'd take any of 3 amps and 3 cab rigs as I saw fit.

I often skimp out on a 800w/4 ohm amp into 112 at 8ohms rated 250w.
Its the carry that dictates..so the latter is a jam band or jazzer rig.

 

[Michedelic]

Since discovering the joys of stereo amps I like the idea of a head and separate cabs, or at least 2 cabs so I can spread my sound wide rather then it coming from a single source right next to me. I love being immersed in and bathing in sound. Combos don't allow me to do this.

If you’re trying to recreate the sound of the Roland Jazz Chorus(which might have sounded great at low volumes, while standing in front of it)by having speakers on stage spread apart, that just isn’t going to work. First if all, with one head that isn’t really stereo, and even if you had two heads, two cabinets to accommodate the “surround sound” fake stereo effect of a variety of modulation boxes, that would get lost on stage and also not translate to the audience. Yes, I tried it, a long time ago. Even if chorus was applied to the bass channel in the PA at the board/desk, it would diffuse in the room. In general, spreading two bass cabs apart on stage is counter-productive, it actually dissipates the accumulative bass sound wave, and introduces the potential for phase problems. That’s why you’d never see rock acts with multiple stacks split them up.

 

[Aloe]

uhm, 800W isn't eight times louder than a 100W, the difference is less than twice. and with one 8 ohm cab, you won't get 800W, you'll get 400. I'd expect the D400 with one cab to have similar volume to your setup. if that's enough for you and you won't need more -- you can get a 400W head, not the 800.

but last time I checked, the price difference between a BP800 an D400 was like 150 euros, I believe, so the D400 seems an expensive purchase provided its' power and price. aside from this, only the BP800 has aux in and has headphones out jack in the front. if I was choosing -- I'd get the 800, even if I didn't need all the power. it just has better price-to-features ratio.

 

[Hasty]

My Grown up jazz experience started with big band and I quickly upgraded to a very loud big band. So I ended up with (for me) an insanely loud rig- An EA Classic head into a MAS 28 cab. Then I started doing more trio and quartet work, and found smaller and lighter stuff that was easier to lug to tight stages. That quickly turned into an amplifier addiction and now I have way more options than I need… however they’re all really great options and sound fantastic on both DB and EB.

Most of the time I’m perfectly content with my AI Ten2 if only playing DB, but will usually grab the EA Doubler and MAS 16 if I’m on a doubling gig because it sounds better with EB than the Ten2.

if I cut back to only one rig for Jazz trios I’d probably keep the MAS16 and the EA Doubler for power.

If I didn’t own anything and was starting fresh with what I’ve experienced over the last several years, I’d either buy a powered MAS16 cab or a Phil Jones BG-120 and tell the drummer to be sensitive to the room and my needs as an individual.

 

[Slevage]

I've done "jazz" gigs with a 1-12 combo, and it was plenty of sound.
For big band jazz, I use a 1-12 extension cabinet with it.

If the gig is outside, with pro FOH, I line into the PA.
If the gig is outside, with little to no FOH, my 1-12 with or without the extension cabinet does the job.

If the "jazz" gig leans toward rock, I bring the biggest rig I have at the time.

So, there is no single answer.

 

[Dm7b5]

[


As mentioned, you shouldn’t be comparing guitar amp watts to bass amp watts, as low frequencies take much more power to generate. A 100watt guitar amp is LOUD, and a 100watt bass amp won’t even keep up with a drummer. If I was going to a gig where I knew the guitarist had a 100watt guitar amp, I’d be bringing a 500watt bass amp just to match their volume.

I’ve played upright and electric bass in all kinds of jazz settings for decades, and if there’s any chance you’ll ever be playing with a big band you will want 500 watts to cleanly produce the low end. You can hang with some big bands with less watts, but not with all big bands or in all venues/settings, so I’d recommend 500 as a safe minimum. I personally found that a GK MB150 combo amp (150watts) was usually enough power for a quiet indoor jazz trio gig. But if we were outdoors or playing a really large room, I always wanted more volume than the 150 watt combo amp could provide.

I don’t know anything about the Phil Jones gear, but in general I’d recommend getting 500-800 watts if this will be your only amp. 400 watts is probably just fine. If you’ll only be in trios/quartets and NEVER play with a big band with drums and large horn section, then you could go lower than 500 but probably not any lower than 250-350 watts. Of course, this all depends on the particular amp/cab manufacturer and design, as they all perform differently regardless of their advertised wattage rating. Sorry I don’t have any Phil Jones experience, but I do have lots of jazz gigging experience with lots of different amps.

Regardless of music genre, I do agree with those saying lots of clean headroom is a good thing. I currently just use a 700 watt bass amp for everything I do, from home practice, to my quietest gigs, to my loudest gigs. I just use one cab for quieter uses and two cabs for louder needs.

Thank you Slo Surfer that was very helful.

 

[sawzalot]

A 100 watt guitar amp is more comparable to a 1000 watt bass amp in terms of perceived volume for what the instrument is doing. It really takes a lot more power to move those lower frequencies. I'd go for the 800 watt amp and use the volume knob to keep a lid on things. It is always better to have power and not need it than need power and not have it.

 

[gtirard]

The audience don't listen to WATTS. Watt is a measure of electrical power, the audience don't listen to electrical power.

You need to know the loudness you need, measured in Db SPL (Decibel - Sound Pressure Limit).

It depends on the electrical power delivered by the amp and the sensitivity (efficiency) of the cab, that is its ability to transform the electrical power into sound. But the efficiency of the cab is a more important factor than the power of the amp. Sensitivty if measured in db @ 1w/m, that is the number of decibel produced by the cab when receiving 1 watt from the amp, measured at 1 meter.

For example, if you need 120 db for your jazz band:
- If you have an efficient cab (example cab 1 - 100 db @1w/m) you only need a 100 W amp
- If you have a less efficient cab (example cab 2 - 96 db @1w/m), you need a 250 W amp

There are many other factors to take into consideration, but the question "do I need a 800 W amp?" means nothing, you have to consider the amp + cab as a whole, and most of the time the cab is a more important factor than the amp.

 

[StatesideRambler]

PS: Suggestions other than Phil Jones are welcome. it's just a starting point as I heard a few bassists get a nice sound from them. Other ideas welcome.

I bought my first Markbass amp (Minimark) from an upright bassist who was stepping up in the Markbass line (Mini CMD151P). He had been using them for jazz gigs and theater orchestras and was happy with them. He now is the head of a conservatory so I give his opinion more weight than someone who’s trying to be the next Jaco, Flea or Marcus Miller.

My mantra WRT gear is, “First determine what the job is, then get gear that’s right for that specific job.”

As has been pointed out above, the kind of music you play should drive the choice of gear. “Jazz trio” is a broad description; are you playing Bucky Pizzarelli, Herb Ellis, Joe Pass-style or more like Ahmad Jamal or even Carla Bley? In most traditional jazz settings, especially when playing upright, the amp is there to give better coverage of the audience or the room. It isn’t used as a tone shaping part of your rig. If you need an amp to somehow shape the tone of your bass then PJB and Markbass are not good choices, both being very clean and neutral sounding.

Good luck in your quest!

 

[Wasnex]

IMHO you are asking the wrong question. The right questions is how loud of an amp do I need. A lot of the smaller/lighter rigs intended for upright seem to make about 118dB. I find I generally prefer a rig that can produce at least 124dB. I can usually work with 118dB, but I have to limit my dynamic range to prevent the amp from distorting or shutting down, and it tends to be hard to hear myself.

SPL results from usable power and the efficiency of the cab. So the power the amp can make is only part of the answer. You also need to consider how much power the cab can actually handle, and how efficient the cab is. Efficiency is expressed as a sensitivity rating.

Sensitivity ratings may be expressed as the SPL measured a 1 meter with 1 Watt applied. Sensitivity may also be expressed as the SPL measure at 1 meter with 2.83V applied. The impedance is also specified For the formula I will show you, you need the 1W/1m sensitivity rating.

There is a trick you can used to convert a 2.83V rating. We know that when there is a 2:1 or 1:2 power changed that it results in a 3dB change. 2.83V at 8 ohms uses 1W. 2.83, while 2.83V at 4 ohms uses 2W. Since this is a 2:1 difference, you can simply subtract 3dB from the 4 ohm rating to convert it to a 1W rating. No conversion is required for the the 2.83V at 8 ohm rating, as this is already a 1W rating.

To figure out how loud a rig can play, the first thing you do is figure out the usable power. This is the lower of how much power the amp will make at the specific impedance of your cab(s), or how much power your cab(s) can handle. So if you have a 4 ohm cab rated for 200W and an amp that is rated for 800W at 4 ohms, the usable power is 200W.

The next think you do is determine your cabs sensitivity rating using the 1W standard. For example it might be something like 100dB 2.83V/1m at 4 ohms, which we would convert to 97dB 1W/1m.

Next you calculate the decibel change that occur when the power changes from 1W to the usable power, which in this case is 200W.

The actual formula for this decibel change is [Log(PowerMax/PowerMin) x 10]. However since PowerMin is 1W, we can simplify the formula and use Decibel Change = [Log(PowerMax) x 10]

Decibel Change = Log(200) x 10 = ~23dB
​

Now we add the decibel change to the 1W sensitivity rating, which in this case is 97dB 1W/1m

SPL at Usable Power (200W) = 97 + 23 = 120dB​

The trick is you need to learn what your SPL requirement is. As stated I consider my number to be about 124dB. This is based on my experience with various rigs.

A problem is some companies do not list the sensitivity ratings for all of their cabs. In particular I don't think Phil Jones lists sensitivity ratings. I would assume the sensitivity rating for their smaller cabs is fairly low.

One final bit of info that may be useful. When you add a second identical cab, you usually connect it in parallel with the first cab. This results in the impedance being cut in half. So with a pair of 4 ohm cabs, the total load is 2 ohms. It's important to make sure you amp is rated to push the resulting impedance. Many amps are rated to 4 ohms minimum, so they should not be used with a 2 ohm load.

Two identical cabs will have twice the power handling and the combined efficiency is assumed to be 3dB higher.

Let's assume our amp is rated for 800W at 2 ohms and we have a pair of 4 ohm cabs rated 200W each with a 97dB 1W/1m. The combined sensitivity rating for both cabs is 100dB 1W/1m and the combined power handling is 400W

Decibel Change = [Log(400) x 10] = ~26dB.​

Add this figure to the 100dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating.

SPL at Usable Power (400W) = 100 + 26 = 126dB.
​

-When you add an identical cab and the amp can double the usable power you get +6dB.
-When you add an identical cab and the power stays the same, you get +3dB.
-A final possibility is the power goes up, but does not double. Under this circumstance you get dB change between +3 and +6dB.

My guess is you want a small and light rig that is extremely portable. The problem is small cabs tend to be inefficient and many have low power ratings, both of which limit how loud the rig can play. Ideally you will learn how much SPL you require, and then do the math so you don't wind up spending a bunch of money on a rig that is super easy to grab and go, but doesn't meet your volume needs.

Good Luck!

 

[djmay]

Either amp would be sufficient. Since you like sound immersion two Phil Jones C2s would be cool.

I play 5-string fretless in a big band. I use a C2 for rehearsals and C4 for gigs. My amp is a TC Electronic BQ500 and have ample headroom always.

 

[gtirard]

IMHO you are asking the wrong question. The right questions is how loud of an amp do I need. A lot of the smaller/lighter rigs intended for upright seem to make about 118dB. I find I generally prefer a rig that can produce at least 124dB. I can usually work with 118dB, but I have to limit my dynamic range to prevent the amp from distorting or shutting down, and it tends to be hard to hear myself.

SPL results from usable power and the efficiency of the cab. So the power the amp can make is only part of the answer. You also need to consider how much power the cab can actually handle, and how efficient the cab is. Efficiency is expressed as a sensitivity rating.

Sensitivity ratings may be expressed as the SPL measured a 1 meter with 1 Watt applied. Sensitivity may also be expressed as the SPL measure at 1 meter with 2.83V applied. The impedance is also specified For the formula I will show you, you need the 1W/1m sensitivity rating.

There is a trick you can used to convert a 2.83V rating. We know that when there is a 2:1 or 1:2 power changed that it results in a 3dB change. 2.83V at 8 ohms uses 1W. 2.83, while 2.83V at 4 ohms uses 2W. Since this is a 2:1 difference, you can simply subtract 3dB from the 4 ohm rating to convert it to a 1W rating. No conversion is required for the the 2.83V at 8 ohm rating, as this is already a 1W rating.

To figure out how loud a rig can play, the first thing you do is figure out the usable power. This is the lower of how much power the amp will make at the specific impedance of your cab(s), or how much power your cab(s) can handle. So if you have a 4 ohm cab rated for 200W and an amp that is rated for 800W at 4 ohms, the usable power is 200W.

The next think you do is determine your cabs sensitivity rating using the 1W standard. For example it might be something like 100dB 2.83V/1m at 4 ohms, which we would convert to 97dB 1W/1m.

Next you calculate the decibel change that occur when the power changes from 1W to the usable power, which in this case is 200W.

The actual formula for this decibel change is [Log(PowerMax/PowerMin) x 10]. However since PowerMin is 1W, we can simplify the formula and use Decibel Change = [Log(PowerMax) x 10]

Decibel Change = Log(200) x 10 = ~23dB
​

Now we add the decibel change to the 1W sensitivity rating, which in this case is 97dB 1W/1m

SPL at Usable Power (200W) = 97 + 23 = 120dB​

The trick is you need to learn what your SPL requirement is. As stated I consider my number to be about 124dB. This is based on my experience with various rigs.

A problem is some companies do not list the sensitivity ratings for all of their cabs. In particular I don't think Phil Jones lists sensitivity ratings. I would assume the sensitivity rating for their smaller cabs is fairly low.

One final bit of info that may be useful. When you add a second identical cab, you usually connect it in parallel with the first cab. This results in the impedance being cut in half. So with a pair of 4 ohm cabs, the total load is 2 ohms. It's important to make sure you amp is rated to push the resulting impedance. Many amps are rated to 4 ohms minimum, so they should not be used with a 2 ohm load.

Two identical cabs will have twice the power handling and the combined efficiency is assumed to be 3dB higher.

Let's assume our amp is rated for 800W at 2 ohms and we have a pair of 4 ohm cabs rated 200W each with a 97dB 1W/1m. The combined sensitivity rating for both cabs is 100dB 1W/1m and the combined power handling is 400W

Decibel Change = [Log(400) x 10] = ~26dB.​

Add this figure to the 100dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating.

SPL at Usable Power (400W) = 100 + 26 = 126dB.
​

-When you add an identical cab and the amp can double the usable power you get +6dB.
-When you add an identical cab and the power stays the same, you get +3dB.
-A final possibility is the power goes up, but does not double. Under this circumstance you get dB change between +3 and +6dB.

My guess is you want a small and light rig that is extremely portable. The problem is small cabs tend to be inefficient and many have low power ratings, both of which limit how loud the rig can play. Ideally you will learn how much SPL you require, and then do the math so you don't wind up spending a bunch of money on a rig that is super easy to grab and go, but doesn't meet your volume needs.

Good Luck!

Yeah, this.

 

[Wasnex]

My last touring rig typically included a Eden D210XLT pushed by about 250W. The D210XLT has 103dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating.

[Log(250) x 10] + 103 = ~127dB.

Notice the power is pretty modest, but the cab is super efficient.

I don't believe I ever got close to pushing this rig to it's limit. There were times where I probably could have played louder, but I am only willing to turn up so much.

 

[biobass]

Hmm. If it is Ernie Watts playing in your jazz band, that is probably all you need. ;>)

 

[el murdoque]

I'd wager that the C4 is enough for Jazz gigs, if you don't make excessive use of the lowest notes of the fifth string and boost bass like a reggae artist. It has a great sound for such a weird cabinet.
But, I'll have to concur with the masses: If you want to get away with it, aim for the bigger head.
I'd say something like 250-300W at 8 Ohm will get you there and the smaller amp has only 200 - which will suffice often, but I'd fear that you run out of headroom here and there. I don't think there are many jazz bassists who like to play their amp in a fashion that makes it sound like it's driven hard.

 

[Dm7b5]

My heavy metal and thrash guitar days are over.. it will be just intimate trios, quartets and quintets in smallish intimate surroundings.. and the occasional more intense but not necessarily excessively loud jazz fusion.

I don't see myself getting very much louder than this fellow..

 

[iiipopes]

In undergrad in the early '80's my bass amp was a Polytone (I can't remember if they called it the mini- or teeny-brute), volume-bass-treble, bright-regular-dark switch, 1X15 speaker in the smallest box you could stuff it into, 100 watts. It kept up very well with a standard compliment full instrumentation jazz band. It's not necessarily about just watts. It's also about the efficiency of the system. An inefficient speaker or cabinet won't support an ensemble no matter how many watts you feed it. I rarely, if ever, had to turn my volume up beyond the first few numbers. I still have the enclosure with the original speaker (the amp died years ago, so I gutted it to use as a cab), which I feed with a new solid state amplifier with about the same power so I don't blow the speaker. Since Phil Jones is a player as well as a manufacturer, have you contacted the company to see what they recommend for your application?

 

[MultiScaleMale]

300W or greater head with an 8 ohm 12" or 15" cab so that you can add another if you need it.