This is what I was about to say. I've used an Acoustic Image Clarus SL into a MAS 108 and it was plenty with a keyboard player and drummer on upright, or a guitarist and drummer on electric.
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Just how many watts does a jazz bassist need?
- Thread starter Dm7b5
- Start date
This is what I was about to say. I've used an Acoustic Image Clarus SL into a MAS 108 and it was plenty with a keyboard player and drummer on upright, or a guitarist and drummer on electric.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
Depends on the size of the gig and the size of the PA - that means a lot more than the genre.
The vast majority of jazz gigs I have done could easily be covered with a tiny amp. The least I have used is 25w with a single 8”.
For one, bass cabinets in the 60s were more midrange focused, even the SVT. Nobody was pumping out fundamentals.
As far as those Kustoms, some plyers used multiple cabs but for the sake of argument we'll look at the case you gave. The bass head is pushing only a tiny bit more wattage but it has far more cone area (3x15 vs. 2x12 or 2x15) than the guitar cabs. That gives it a fighting chance to keep up. Of course the Ampeg recommended setup was to run the SVT with two cabs which gives it a lot more cone area than two 4x12 guitar cabs.
Wattage into a speaker load is logarithmic. To be twice as loud as a 50 watt amp into a given cabinet you need a 500 watt amp (10x). My personal rule is if I feel underpowered go for 4x the wattage and gain 6dB.
I played through college as a doubler with a GK MB112. In big band and combo settings it was absolutely fine.
I also played in cover bands up and down 6th Street at that time (not jazz), and the MB112 would have been completely lost. I used a Dietz 215 cabinet with a Sunn head, which I only mention because it was laughably heavy.
I'd think, if your jazz is similar to what my jazz was, a 12" combo would work fine. GK still makes an MB112, it's probably a lot better than the one I used in the early 90s.
I also played in cover bands up and down 6th Street at that time (not jazz), and the MB112 would have been completely lost. I used a Dietz 215 cabinet with a Sunn head, which I only mention because it was laughably heavy.
I'd think, if your jazz is similar to what my jazz was, a 12" combo would work fine. GK still makes an MB112, it's probably a lot better than the one I used in the early 90s.
He may not need this much power, but currently have two amps that put out 800-watts and love them. I have never yet used all 800-watts from either, which is a good thing because it means longer life for the amps because they don't have to work as hard as a 400-watt amp that has to use all of its power to keep the bass at gig level.
I also really like the sound of my DNA-800 amp and my Eden amps through my DNA cabs and you just don't get that out of most PA's. I have run my WTDI, which is a Di with built-in Eden WT preamp to get a similar sound of PA's but most PA's like you are talking about are really FOH systems and they both take a DI out of my amp and mic my cab to replicate the sound I get on stage. And yes, they tell me to turn down with one of my Eden amps running bridged at 800-watts into my DNS-410 cab. I don't mind when they do that because it means I never have to lug a 200-lb plus 810 cab around.
Furthermore, with lesser PA's, the guitar, keys, and vocals, all plug into them just fine but you start putting your bass through them and folks seem to get very protective of their PA speakers. In other words, I have to provide my own amp and cab(s), which I have no problem doing.
Why do I feel that way? Very simply because I've been in a situation where everyone told me I needed to turn up and my gear was already maxed out. I ended up going out and buying an amp that had 4 times as much power as the one I had and the cab to handle it...and then I continued touring for another 2½ years playing 5-nights a week, 50-weeks a year (early 70's). I vowed never again to be caught with too little amp and cabs than I needed for the gig. I wouldn't expect to use all that power for most Jazz gigs, but you can always turn down if you're too loud and you can't turn up if you're already at max with your gear. A 500-watt amp will get most venues done with a 410 cab, but somewhere down the road you will need an 800-watt amp.
I actually have a DNS-210 cab by DNA (David Nordschow Amplification) that will handle 700-watts rms and has a max SPL of 134db. I use it for all my indoor venues now including large indoor venues and reserve that 410 that will handle twice as much power for outdoor venues and music festivals. Bad news is that DNA is shutting down due to lack of parts availability, so getting a new one now is pretty iffy. Good news is they've been around since 2010 and you can still find them used on Reverb and E-bay. They are super clear, articulate and loud and being one of their endorsers, I'm sorry to see them go. But you might be able to get a good price on one. I use my 210 in places that I used to use my 410 though, so that helps with schlepping gear around. Just for reference, the price new of that 210 was ~$849 and the 410 was ~$1149 to $1249. Used prices are normally much less.
I wish I had the ability to go through a PA on jazz or big band gigs. Last year less than 2% of my gigs gave me a FOH opportunity.
I've been playing jazz for 40+ years, electric and upright. Right now I play most of my gigs with a GK MB200 head, and a homemade 1x8 cabinet of moderate efficiency for its size. I play with a 19-piece jazz band, and various combo groups.
When I need to be louder, I have a 1x12 of moderate efficiency at my disposal. I rarely use it nowadays. In the gigs that I've played in the last 10 years, there have only been a couple of occasions when my bass was plugged into a PA system, typically large outdoor festivals.
I think a lot depends on what "jazz" means. For instance, if your band plays a lot of contemporary styles such as jazz-rock, R&B, and funk, you might need more power. If your band wants to have amplified wind instruments, monitors, etc., it's going to get loud in a hurry.
In my locale, there's been somewhat of a backlash against the "jazz should be played louder and louder" trend, fortunately. I'm part of that backlash. A combo that can drown out my 1x8 is playing too damn loud for virtually any venue. Truth be told, being able to play quietly, in smaller venues that don't have space for full PA gear, will improve a band's chances of getting referrals and gigs.
When I need to be louder, I have a 1x12 of moderate efficiency at my disposal. I rarely use it nowadays. In the gigs that I've played in the last 10 years, there have only been a couple of occasions when my bass was plugged into a PA system, typically large outdoor festivals.
I think a lot depends on what "jazz" means. For instance, if your band plays a lot of contemporary styles such as jazz-rock, R&B, and funk, you might need more power. If your band wants to have amplified wind instruments, monitors, etc., it's going to get loud in a hurry.
In my locale, there's been somewhat of a backlash against the "jazz should be played louder and louder" trend, fortunately. I'm part of that backlash. A combo that can drown out my 1x8 is playing too damn loud for virtually any venue. Truth be told, being able to play quietly, in smaller venues that don't have space for full PA gear, will improve a band's chances of getting referrals and gigs.
Man I wish we could have a revolution like that down here! All the horn players want to be loud and scream out their solos.
I do agree that the more sedate volume levels get you called back. My trio has had many times where we are just doing some insanely crazy things, but because it isn't loud people seem to get more into what's going on and those that always talk over the bass solos don't complain about our volume.
The BG400 sounds very clean, and it also gets very loud. Plenty loud for a jazz combo, and it’s got a fine DI for PA if needed. It’s also very compact (though not lightweight, at 40 lbs.). Because it’s so compact, I do find its onstage sound to be slightly lacking in low-end, but that’s fixable (if you feel it needs fixing) with an extension cabinet. Many people like the C4 and C8 cabs for this purpose.
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In my opinion, anything over 300 watts is inappropriate for a jazz gig. The problem is that at a higher wattage, the resolution of the volume control becomes too coarse.
Which means that at low volume, adjusting Volume becomes very fiddly, and you have to try to find the right volume on the first 5 millimeters by chance.
Also, please remember that not long ago, high-powered Class-D (300+ Watts) amps weren't that common, still Bassist were able to play and getting heard just fine.
Also also, it's Jazz not Rock.
Which means that at low volume, adjusting Volume becomes very fiddly, and you have to try to find the right volume on the first 5 millimeters by chance.
Also, please remember that not long ago, high-powered Class-D (300+ Watts) amps weren't that common, still Bassist were able to play and getting heard just fine.
Also also, it's Jazz not Rock.
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Just because it’s jazz doesn’t mean we have to always be quiet. We might be nerdy but we can get rowdy with the best of them as long as it’s before 10pm.
I’ve been playing EB in a jazz trio for a few years with piano and a tasteful drummer. I have been using an old GK MB112 (200 watts) for about half of my gigs and it works well. For bigger gigs or if I want a higher-quality sound, I use a Markbass LMIII with a fEARful 12/6 (300 watts at 4ohms). That rig can roar if needed.
Due to tendonitis issues, I no longer gig with the DB, but had some good gigs in the past the GK.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
One more factor to consider is your EQ:
Low bass takes a lot more power to amplify than midrange or treble. A rig that emphasizes midrange and treble will sound louder using less power.
I use an Acoustic Image head with a built-in variable high-pass filter that simultaneously protects the loudspeaker from the lowest frequencies and makes the most of available power.
For jazz trios I use a 1x8 or 2x8 cab; for louder gigs, I use both or use larger cabs.
Good luck in your quest!
Low bass takes a lot more power to amplify than midrange or treble. A rig that emphasizes midrange and treble will sound louder using less power.
I use an Acoustic Image head with a built-in variable high-pass filter that simultaneously protects the loudspeaker from the lowest frequencies and makes the most of available power.
For jazz trios I use a 1x8 or 2x8 cab; for louder gigs, I use both or use larger cabs.
Good luck in your quest!
