Just how many watts does a jazz bassist need?

[fdeck]

Wattage is about where you are playing, not what

Yes and no. On the one hand, it's true that jazz tends to get played in smaller venues, because it can be. But on the other hand, the "market" for jazz takes advantage of the tendency for the music itself to be played at lower volume. A lot of venues don't care about jazz per se, but are looking for some pleasant entertainment. Jazz groups often play light rock and pop material, but at a controlled volume level.

In my own case, it wouldn't really matter if I brought my bigger or smaller rigs (speakers with different sensitivity), but I like the tone quality of the smaller one, and would rarely need the capability of the bigger one. And the OP asked about need.

 

[Redbrangus]

Since there have been over 100 replies and the OP has long since stopped paying attention, now is probably the time to weigh in with my two centavos worth. As mentioned, it's not about the watts, but how loud one needs to be. What I think of as a 'jazz trio' gig mostly means playing at a level at which a good acoustic piano could be heard without amplification. There's no reason a Rumble 100 wouldn't be plenty, but I'd still opt for a bit more horsepower because... well, you just never know. A 200-watt combo or head/cab should be more than sufficient for anything like the OP has described. That said, watts are cheap, and a 500-watt head isn't much more than a 200-watt. Paired with a 2x8, 110 or 112 cab, that should rock out pretty well. Pardon me... I mean swing correctly.

 

[brianrost]

I'll wrap up my thoughts with the tale of Walter Woods amps, beloved of jazzers.

He started out with a 75 watter (the "ice cream sandwich" amp) in the 1970s, then started making the MI-100-8 (red light)...100 watts into 8 ohms, 150 watts into 4 ohms). Today he only makes the blue light 1200 watt monsters. Is it all for headroom, do bassists like it really loud or is it the only WW model bassists can buy?

Here's his 1990 price list (yes, a 1100 watt amp in 1990 that weighed only 8 pounds):

75 watts into 8 ohms...the beginning. Use the loud input at all times Use of the "more" switches is advised

100/150 watts

400/600 watts (plug in four basses at once!!!)

400 watts per ch stereo

1200 watts into 4 ohms...the end of the line! Still only 8 pounds...

 

[Hasty]

What I think of as a 'jazz trio' gig mostly means playing at a level at which a good acoustic piano could be heard without amplification.

That is a brilliant observation and I think that might be a contributing variable to the range of answers.

We frequently speak from our own experience and influence. I know by current personal bias has affected my answers. My trio is guitar, bass, and drums. So we have quite a bit of flexibility with our volume levels. Honestly the deciding factor is one of two things.


1. What is the venue/audience

If it's a rowdy club gig or a loud brewery/distillery type situation we're gonna play louder because it's appropriate for that context. However we've also played pre-dinner cocktail functions or hoity-toity Sunday brunches where our volume was so low you could hear youngsters at the table closest to us smacking down fancy pancakes.

2. Which tube amp is my guitar player bringing.

I am truly blessed with a great guitarist that is sensitive to his environment. If we're playing a wallpaper gig he brings a hot-rodded 5W Fender Champ that is a perfect match to his Gibson archtop. He can get it just to the edge of breakup without being too loud. If we're in rowdy mode, he has a 14W tube amp and can get pretty loud (for us).

I choose my rig accordingly for each gig based on that and we have a good thing going. Am I overpowered most of the time? Probably, but even my loudest rig weighs less than 40 pounds and is fairly compact. I guess that's the advantage to pairing good heads with efficient cabs.

I will say that I also regularly sub with a piano trio (piano, sax, bass) and for that gig I always bring a micro sized setup. It holds its own quite nicely in that context.

Most of us here are gear nerds and collect equipment like some people collect baseball cards. I like my gear and each piece meets a need (at least that's how I justify it in my mind) and it's all paid for itself many times over. The OP just needs to find that gear that meets his needs. Whether he uses a complicated formula that actually calculate needs, or chooses something bevy it has a cool name or someone famous plays it… as long as it makes him happy that's what it's all about.

 

[DJ Bebop]

What I think of as a 'jazz trio' gig mostly means playing at a level at which a good acoustic piano could be heard without amplification.

We had a jazz club back in the day that did just that. It had a PA but it was purposely small, only vocals or acoustic guitars through it. You were under your own power on the stage but your stage volume had to be in harmony with the grand piano that was never mic'd, on purpose.

Here is an old cassette recording (remember them ) I made there over 20 years ago. It's a little rough at first, old cassette and all but it smooths out as it goes. No piano on this though.

Oh, for those that maybe interested, it's Leroy Vinnegar on bass...



Enjoy!

 

[drumvsbass]

All the watts.
Never enough watts.
Watts needed and watts wanted are two different things.
It's when the Watts wanted make the band go WHAT? that's how you know how many watts you need...

 

[chadds]

All amps and cabs aren't equal in design. I've played big places with 160w through PA and other times needed 500-1000w to have clean dynamic sound outside with no band shell and PA only on vocals. I don't gear up for one band or setting. I need to be able to bring it with body and clarity in many different environments and with different players. If cranked my amp begins to distort this could be inappropriate for the genre of music. I can't be sure of what PA is at a gig and I often choose to be out of it.

We are on TB and when someone says, including me, I sounded great with 100w the question is, "did you?" I've heard a group where the bassist was a barely heard and not felt. The bassist was happy his rig was portable. To me if you can't hear or feel it then why show up? Was the grit from SS and speaker distortion or was it serving the song? I will take 1000w to a singer songwriter gig. The sound will be an appropriate volume for seniors with full pleasing tone and girth.

With watts you can better control the acoustics. You don't have to force bad acoustics when you can send good signal into a room with low volume. Headroom. With watts and good amp architecture and speaker design you bring fidelity so you playing nuances aren't obscured. Is this or that watts enough? Depends. You know best. Be prepared for most situations and you can't go wrong. The show must go on.

 

[TroyK]

@Dm7b5

I'm happy to see a few doublebassists reply. Amplifying DB is different than amplifying BG. Since you posted this in BG fora, I'm afraid that you've received nearly 5 pages of BG amplification suggestions and recommendations. Come over to the DB side and compare answers before you part with your coin and hope for the best.

Generally speaking, BGs do okay through amps that make DBs happy, especially if you have a pedal to drive the BG a little bit. I use Euphonic Audio amps and occasionally put a Tech21 paradriver in between them and my Warwick Corvette (passive J-J).

On DB, I and thousands of other people have played jazz gigs of all sizes with a GK MB150 or MB200 combo. I kind of miss that little thing, honestly. It wasn't great with BG, but for practice at home or a jazz gig in a coffee shop/small restaurant it would be plenty.

One of the bands I play with has a small GK combo with a 10 or 12 inch speaker, probably 100 watts, could probably be found on craigslist for $100. Not designed for DB, but it works just fine for rehearsals with grand piano (which it sits under), drums, trumpet and vocals through a PA. Probably not ideal on a smallish gig, but I'd use it

My EA amps are 500 watts into 4ohms and it's more than I could ever possibly need. They were expensive and EA is out of business, but clean watts, cabinets tuned beautifully for jazz and great EQs to help with room acoustics.

Personally starting from scratch right now, I'd probably check out options from Traynor. Good price point and excellent endorsement from working players who use them.

I caution you STRONGLY not to buy your favorite BG amp and hope for the best on DB.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I'm using a 500 watt head with a 2 x 12" cabinet. Our band is a little too loud but there's no way that amp is out of it's depth. I've got tons of headroom and any room the amp couldn't handle would have be very big indeed or perhaps outdoors in which case there would be PA support. Before that amp I used a 350 watt 2 x 10" watt combo and before that a 130 watt solid state with 2 x 15". Same story. Never overpowered by the band ever. I'm puzzled by some of the stories I hear about needing high-powered amps. I've been playing a very long time - most of it professionally in all sorts of venues and my current amp is by far the most powerful I've ever owned. I've never been drowned out by loud guitarists or drummers. I can't see why a jazz gig would need massive power.

Myself and just guessing here.

Yes back in the day, a B-15 or a Versatone amp was enough at 25 watts or so.

Nowadays unless you are just looking for a 25-watt amp, most combos are going to be 100 watts out the gate in a small format.

But if you're a doubler you might want a little more juice so, maybe a combo that is 150 watts 8 ohms, 300 4 ohms so I can add an extra cab on bigger gigs.

But sometimes I want to just bring one cab but still want a little more power into the one cab so a 300-watt head into 8 ohms.

I have an 800-watt head, that can also run at 300, 400, 600, and 800 watts depending on the number of cabs and the ohm switch position on the amp, and the head weights in at 3.18 kg no weight savings going with a lesser powered head. So at that point it's just a cabinet choice for the evening.

So yes if that is the only thing I do, playing small jazz combo gigs, I would too only have a small 25 to 50-watt combo. But I do more than that so I don't hamstring myself with watts.

There is a volume control on these things.

 

[Searay]

300 tube watts and an 8x10 should do it.

 

[DJ Bebop]

@Dm7b5

I caution you STRONGLY not to buy your favorite BG amp and hope for the best on DB.

 

[MrLenny1]

An old standard I have seen is the Gk 150 ,12" speaker.

 

[DJ Bebop]

An old standard I have seen is the Gk 150 ,12" speaker.

Those were the jam back in the day.
If a guy walked into the club with one of those or a Walter Woods and maybe a couple of Bose 901s, you knew they were serious players.

 

[ClusterFlux]

I use this...

OK, so I have to ask.

1) How do you stop that setup from feeding back?

2) Do you actually use the bottom two cabs, or are they just there to raise the top cabinet to ear level?

3) Are you ever able to turn the volume higher than 1 when amplifying the DB?

 

[Hasty]

OK, so I have to ask.

1) How do you stop that setup from feeding back?

2) Do you actually use the bottom two cabs, or are they just there to raise the top cabinet to ear level?

3) Are you ever able to turn the volume higher than 1 when amplifying the DB?

I'm not as cool as @DJ Bebop but I have played through an SVT tube amp with an 810 a few times as a back line and played it pretty loudly (because how often do I get to jam on a classic rig like that as a DB player???). Also played my own rig louder than I should have a few times at outdoor gigs or big rooms that didn't have good FOH.

I had success with good cab placement and fine tuning my HPF to the room/situation. Also making sure I only used the piezo and not my mic in that situation.

 

[DJ Bebop]

OK, so I have to ask.

1) How do you stop that setup from feeding back?

2) Do you actually use the bottom two cabs, or are they just there to raise the top cabinet to ear level?

3) Are you ever able to turn the volume higher than 1 when amplifying the DB?

1) I actually step forward and to the right a little bit. If I get some feedback, a rolled-up towel is under the tailpiece or fingerboard but that doesn't happen that much because...

2) I use all the cabinets at once, with more cone area to spread the sound around, it is very tall sounding and the amp head I'm using is very versatile in the tone shaping department so...

3) I can get louder than 1 with the DB without a lot of feedback.

The amp is a Mesa WD 800.
HPF, 3 bands of active semi-parametric mid-EQ, a passive mid-EQ, then your usual bass and treble.

Then there's a 3-position damping control that changes how the amps responses or "feels." Like the response from tube amps, they are low damping, soild state are high damping. So Mesa on this amp gives you 3 choices of feel, low, medium, high.

Anyway...

 

[Aloe]

I love my cab47! Looking to add a 2nd to my rig... But they are discontinued...

uhm, I believe, for some reason it's not available anymore in America, but is in EU. Phil Jones does things like this (like an inbuild transformer in BG-75 for the EU market, or the D400, which is also EU-only).

if the shipping from EU doesn't frighten you, you can get one from Thomann.

 

[Jv-d]

uhm, I believe, for some reason it's not available anymore in America, but is in EU. Phil Jones does things like this (like an inbuild transformer in BG-75 for the EU market, or the D400, which is also EU-only).

if the shipping from EU doesn't frighten you, you can get one from Thomann.

Aloe,
Your right, I forgot about that...
Good suggestion!!
Thanx!

 

[Jv-d]

For one, bass cabinets in the 60s were more midrange focused, even the SVT. Nobody was pumping out fundamentals.

As far as those Kustoms, some plyers used multiple cabs but for the sake of argument we'll look at the case you gave. The bass head is pushing only a tiny bit more wattage but it has far more cone area (3x15 vs. 2x12 or 2x15) than the guitar cabs. That gives it a fighting chance to keep up. Of course the Ampeg recommended setup was to run the SVT with two cabs which gives it a lot more cone area than two 4x12 guitar cabs.

Wattage into a speaker load is logarithmic. To be twice as loud as a 50 watt amp into a given cabinet you need a 500 watt amp (10x). My personal rule is if I feel underpowered go for 4x the wattage and gain 6dB.

Brian...
Taxachussetts....
Laugh my bleeding butt off... WICKED!!
Lived in NH in the 80's... and that was certainly our moniker for those to the immediate south of us... Taught skiing at Pats Peak, and man did we get flooded with all those Massh*les (no offense intended) from Taxachussetts...
Then in the late 80's they all moved to NH, and brought their taxes with them... That's when I moved to Vt... And now enjoying the same tax structure you are down there...
I guess you can run, but you can't hide from death n taxes!!
But, boy did I have a big laugh when I saw that under your name!!!

 

[DJ Bebop]

Back in the late 60s, a common backline for a band was all (or mostly) Kustom gear. They only made heads in two wattages - the K100, 50 watts into 4 ohms and the K200, 100 watts in to 4 ohms, and most of the cabs were loaded with 16 ohm speakers. The bass player usually had the 3x15 cab, which would have been, what, about 75 watts into 5-2/3 ohms? And the guitarists each had a 2x12 or 2x15 8-ohm cab, so getting roughly 50 watts. They certainly were not as loud as so many bands(metal or otherwise) 10-20 years hence, but they were plenty loud enough, and I don't recall thinking "hmm, the bass is kind of weak" for any of them. So how was the bass player able to keep up with guitarists who had close to the same power output from their amps?

And the next generation of bands typically had the guitarists with 100 watt Marshall stacks, and the bass with an Acoustic 360/370 or SVT, roughly 300 watts each. Certainly a step up, but nowhere near the 500-800 watts being suggested here.

(I know, 500 watts isn't *that* much more than 300, but still...)

I think also look at some of these situation that a 300 or 500 watt heads are used. In this situation of upright amping, it is usually into one cabinet, a super 12 that can handle the watts. It is not an 8x10 with a lot of cone area. A 1x12 @ 300 watts is not going to have the presence or be as loud as a 8x10 @ 300 watts in a room. Yet a 1x12 on it own may have more perceived fundamentals or low end for a speaker that sized @ 300 watts. New 15s are that way, with more low-end, power handling than a port-a-flex bottom, yet at only 25 watts a B-15 would have enough mid-presence to cut through most low-watt gigs. I have used B-15 heads with my Aguilar GS 112 and have gotten a great sound out of that combo but the 25 watts hits a wall. A 300-watt head will get me more headroom but just a little more volume before the 1x12 hits the wall of not offering any more presence in the room.
Or something like that!