Just Learning Songs

[coyote1]

100% agreement with those emphasizing knowledge of musical theory. Imagine that, instead of having to recall each song from memory, you could simply open a song book - and for almost every song in the book, immediately see the picture of how the song goes. To know the moment you see Dm7b5 in a chart, the next chord will likely be G7b9, and the chord after it Cmin7. And that therefore, your tonal center for those few bars is C minor. And that the Ab is a common tone in all three of those chords, so any line you construct can incorporate that note and thereby be a beautiful strong line within those few bars.

And then imagine you see Fm7b5 in a different song, and can apply all that same knowledge to that phrase by simply moving your hand three frets up the fretboard. With Eb as the tonal center, and B as the common tone.

Why would you want to ‘learn’ one song by having to memorize it, when by knowing theory you can know hundreds of songs just by looking at pages of music?

 

[Mushroo]

100% agreement with those emphasizing knowledge of musical theory. Imagine that, instead of having to recall each song from memory, you could simply open a song book - and for almost every song in the book, immediately see the picture of how the song goes. To know the moment you see Dm7b5 in a chart, the next chord will likely be G7b9, and the chord after it Cmin7. And that therefore, your tonal center for those few bars is C minor. And that the Ab is a common tone in all three of those chords, so any line you construct can incorporate that note and thereby be a beautiful strong line within those few bars.

And then imagine you see Fm7b5 in a different song, and can apply all that same knowledge to that phrase by simply moving your hand three frets up the fretboard. With Eb as the tonal center, and B as the common tone.

Why would you want to ‘learn’ one song by having to memorize it, when by knowing theory you can know hundreds of songs just by looking at pages of music?

Respectfully, I think you're critiquing a type of player that doesn't actually exist in reality. Players who learn songs by ear have excellent pattern-recognition skill, as good as (or sometimes even better than) players who learn by reading songbooks. Anyone who is good enough musician to learn songs with ii-V jazz changes by ear, is going to know that Dmin7b5 and G7b9 are leading to Cmin. I don't think your hypothetical musician, with the lopsided skill set to understand the first two chords in your progression but struggle hopelessly with the third chord, actually exists anywhere in the world.

A player with a good ear (i.e. not me!), who felt like being snarky that day, might roll their eyes and sarcastically reply to you, "Why would you want to 'learn' a hundred songs from that songbook, when you can know thousands of songs just by using your ears?"

 

[g-dude]

Roots and fives will play a lot of bass.

**The 7th and Flat 7th have left the chat**

 

[g-dude]

Babies learn to speak without ANY theory and it works because the theory is in the structure of any intelligible utterance and we figure it out what works here will work there, we just don't have a common language that way.. The same with songs, etudes, sonatas, and soundscapes. The mixed approach of learning songs and then why and how songs work as many advocate here is the right way.

To carry your analogy further, if you don’t learn the theory, your bass playing will be stuck in the toddler stage.

 

[g-dude]

Respectfully, I think you're critiquing a type of player that doesn't actually exist in reality. Players who learn songs by ear have excellent pattern-recognition skill, as good as (or sometimes even better than) players who learn by reading songbooks. Anyone who is good enough musician to learn songs with ii-V jazz changes by ear, is going to know that Dmin7b5 and G7b9 are leading to Cmin. I don't think your hypothetical musician, with the lopsided skill set to understand the first two chords in your progression but struggle hopelessly with the third chord, actually exists anywhere in the world.

A player with a good ear, who felt like being snarky that day, might roll their eyes and sarcastically reply to you, "Why would you want to 'learn' a hundred songs from that songbook, when you can know thousands of songs just by using your ears?"

Disagree.

Knowing “the formula” is the key that unlocks the door. I’ve played with many people who don’t necessarily intuit what the next chord has to be unless it’s in front of them - and even then they might not know “why”.

Folks that sound reasonably good.

And then you have to explain to them how to play a diminished chord on the guitar because they have somehow managed to avoid playing one. Or why it matters that a chord is a 9th versus a 7th.

Or you have to explain to them that suspended chords can be created with a 2nd instead of a 4th replacing the 3rd, even though they sound really good when they play the piano.

This has all literally happened to me within the past month.

 

[Mushroo]

Disagree.

Knowing “the formula” is the key that unlocks the door. I’ve played with many people who don’t necessarily intuit what the next chord has to be unless it’s in front of them - and even then they might not know “why”.

Folks that sound reasonably good.

And then you have to explain to them how to play a diminished chord on the guitar because they have somehow managed to avoid playing one. Or why it matters that a chord is a 9th versus a 7th.

Or you have to explain to them that suspended chords can be created with a 2nd instead of a 4th replacing the 3rd, even though they sound really good when they play the piano.

This has all literally happened to me within the past month.

I would argue that these players in your example don't know the chords to the song, which exactly proves my point: that it is of primal importance to do your homework and learn the song.

A player who knows zero theory, but actually knows how the song goes, would have given the superior performance in that situation, is my point. The musicians in your example should have spend more practice time, just learning the songs.

 

[Biggbass]

I have a friend who's been teaching guitar to beginners for many years. His biggest complaint about it is that so many want to just learn how to play their favorite song(s) and not take the time to learn the instrument.

It's the old "teach a man to fish" scenario.

 

[Kipp Harrington]

Hey all. Finally got my bass out of the shop. Have a question. What would it teach me to learn a bunch of songs on bass. I've tried taking lessons, but get bored. Learning songs really inspires me. What would it teach me to just learn songs? I've played guitar for most of my life, and that's basically how I learned it.

It will teach you how to memorize a plethora of notes in a particular pattern/order. Probably not much more than that. That's all I pretty much do... learn songs. I tried learning theory but became frustrated. I did learn some very basic arpeggios. But in the end, I'm ok with just learning songs (and jamming with my band, gigging, etc.). It makes me happy. Oh yeah, it can also lead to giving you some ideas about writing your own songs. Certainly nothing "wrong" with it. To each their own. Have fun!

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

Music theory will not only help you with understanding and deciphering the songs easier, but with communicating with other musicians in the futre.

If you see yourself a working bassist in the future and want to be taken seriously, then learn (at least basic) music theory. If you just want to have fun with friends, then don't bother and play what you like.

 

[coyote1]

Respectfully, I think you're critiquing a type of player that doesn't actually exist in reality. Players who learn songs by ear have excellent pattern-recognition skill, as good as (or sometimes even better than) players who learn by reading songbooks. Anyone who is good enough musician to learn songs with ii-V jazz changes by ear, is going to know that Dmin7b5 and G7b9 are leading to Cmin. I don't think your hypothetical musician, with the lopsided skill set to understand the first two chords in your progression but struggle hopelessly with the third chord, actually exists anywhere in the world.

A player with a good ear (i.e. not me!), who felt like being snarky that day, might roll their eyes and sarcastically reply to you, "Why would you want to 'learn' a hundred songs from that songbook, when you can know thousands of songs just by using your ears?"

Where did I ever claim such a “lopsided skill set”?? You are arguing against a straw man of your own creation.

But let’s try this. You are the bassist in a trio. The structure of a song has the bass play a note, and then the guitarist fill in the chord a beat later. How are you going to use your ears to know what bass note to hit next?
Imagine the first line of the song has the chords Bb7 | Eb7 | Abmaj7 | Abmaj7 |.

What is your bass note to start the next line?

 

[Mushroo]

Where did I ever claim such a “lopsided skill set”?? You are arguing against a straw man of your own creation.

But let’s try this. You are the bassist in a trio. The structure of a song has the bass play a note, and then the guitarist fill in the chord a beat later. How are you going to use your ears to know what bass note to hit next?
Imagine the first line of the song has the chords Bb7 | Eb7 | Abmaj7 | Abmaj7 |.

What is your bass note to start the next line?

We're talking about two totally different situations. You're talking about improvising a bass line to an unfamiliar song you've never heard before; I'm sensing maybe you're a jazz musician? I'm talking about learning the songs on my own practice time, so I am prepared for the gig and don't have to improvise.

I will happily concede those are two different skill sets.

 

[BassBrass]

To carry your analogy further, if you don’t learn the theory, your bass playing will be stuck in the toddler stage.

I'd say carrying the analogy further, You have adults who can speak and write grammatically correct English who don't know any of the rules of grammar. None. English teachers spend a semester on diagramming sentences-- my gahd that was the most boring and useless class I ever had to suffer through. I learned to read music and basic theory for communication between musicians at the same time I learned how to play, but Music can be mastered without a common language if you are a soloist or have enough common language. Having come up in the academy I had to unlearn a whole lot of stuff actually. Inhibitions and limiting concepts are endemic to any pedagogy.

 

[g-dude]

I would argue that these players in your example don't know the chords to the song, which exactly proves my point: that it is of primal importance to do your homework and learn the song.

A player who knows zero theory, but actually knows how the song goes, would have given the superior performance in that situation, is my point. The musicians in your example should have spend more practice time, just learning the songs.

So the perspective I’m coming from here is of someone who routinely plays songs I don’t know in a live setting.

I play bass at church, and frankly the music isn’t what I’d choose to listen to on my own. Rehearsal is tonight, and I just got word yesterday around dinner time that the set list is finalized. I think two of the songs I haven’t heard before. Maybe it’s only one, and the other I just forgot about. Who knows.

I’ll take about 30-45 minutes at some point today to look at the songs, do a couple of play throughs. Biggest part is knowing when the bass comes in and drops out. Since most of the songs seem to have bass parts written by guitar players, I could just play roots and call it a day...but that’s boring, so instead, I’ll come up with some bassline ideas that fit the song, and are as involved as possible, trying to stop just shy of the mark where it triggers “can you just play the chord name, and try to only play notes when the bass drum plays?”

I know the other folks on rotation for the bass do NOT do that. I can listen to the livestreams where I played, and as long as I make sure to dial in the DI pedal, you can tell there’s a bass guitar part being played - not overly standing out, but there to be heard if you choose to focus on it. In contrast, I find it almost impossible to hear the other folks when they take a turn, because they’re following the chord chart and only the chord chart. There are no 3rds, 5ths, 7ths, passing tones, etc. unless you see an inversion specified. There’s no walking up or down. There are no octave leaps.

They clearly “know” the music - in fact, they likely listen to it. They start and stop at the right times. No note appears out of place.

This is what knowing the theory does. It allows you to parachute in, and go for it...or if the arrangement changes, you can quickly adapt.

I once played a church set on an Irish Bouzouki. It’s basically like a Mandolin, but an octave lower. Initially was just going to play chords, but was told that it was cutting through too much, so they asked me to play single note stuff. This was about 1.5 hours before I’d be playing the instrument live...an instrument I had literally just bought a few weeks prior. Without a decent grasp on theory, I’d have been sunk, but instead I borrowed a little bit of theory and approached it like the soft beginning of a late 80’s/early 90’s thrash metal song and came up with some cool ostinati.

Knowing and understanding the “why” does remove some of the mystery and magic of it all, but then again, so does watching that YouTube video where they demonstrate that every song is Pachelbel’s Canon in D.

 

[Basslice]

Hey all. Finally got my bass out of the shop. Have a question. What would it teach me to learn a bunch of songs on bass. I've tried taking lessons, but get bored. Learning songs really inspires me. What would it teach me to just learn songs? I've played guitar for most of my life, and that's basically how I learned it.

I don't quite understand the question. It was worded strange to me. "What would it teach me?"

All I can say that if you want to learn and play music rather than sit around learning theory, play with others. Pick some songs. Go to jams and open mics. IMO nothing teaches faster than doing. Might have to wait a while with the current medical crisis.

However, learning basic theory, how to read charts and scales is always useful. I've been playing 30 years and never took a lesson. Would I have been better off if I had? I don't know. I am sure it would have helped, but I really started playing because I get high off playing with and in front of people.

 

[g-dude]

I'd say carrying the analogy further, You have adults who can speak and write grammatically correct English who don't know any of the rules of grammar. None. English teachers spend a semester on diagramming sentences-- my gahd that was the most boring and useless class I ever had to suffer through. I learned to read music and basic theory for communication between musicians at the same time I learned how to play, but Music can be mastered without a common language if you are a soloist or have enough common language. Having come up in the academy I had to unlearn a whole lot of stuff actually. Inhibitions and limiting concepts are endemic to any pedagogy.

Except that’s incorrect. The adults learned grammar. They might not remember it, but a certain degree of it has become embedded in their thought process.

While nobody diagrams sentences in their daily lives, understanding subject, verb conjugation and tenses, direct object, indirect object, adverbs, and adjectives are all really important the minute you start to learn a foreign language. It’s also incredibly useful the minute your work requires written communication.

 

[coyote1]

I would argue that these players in your example don't know the chords to the song, which exactly proves my point: that it is of primal importance to do your homework and learn the song.

A player who knows zero theory, but actually knows how the song goes, would have given the superior performance in that situation, is my point. The musicians in your example should have spend more practice time, just learning the songs.

You’re tapping into one of my pet peeves with some old band mates from ages ago. I would write a song, and give them the sheet music so we could record it.

They would look blankly at the sheet and say “can you play the part for me?”

The correct reply to that question: If I need to play the part for you, what exactly do I need you for?

 

[Basslice]

I have a friend who's been teaching guitar to beginners for many years. His biggest complaint about it is that so many want to just learn how to play their favorite song(s) and not take the time to learn the instrument. It's the old "teach a man to fish" scenario.

I have a different point of view. When I was in 2nd grade I was told to choose and instrument and take lessons. I chose Trombone. For months my lessons consisted of blowing quarter notes. I was bored to tears. I quit.

Now I have a 11 year old. He started playing piano 6 years ago (with our urging, not force), and he is a completely distracted kid. I thought it was going to be a disater. However, we enrolled him a Simply Music (TM) program. In that format they sit and learn a song on day one. Then they add more song and more complexity. There is no formal reading but they use a chord and chart system and inject theory at a level that makes sense.

The program has people of all ages and I can tell you that I see joy in all of them when they do recitals. The 5 year old and the 77 year old. My son has a great ear, and I think he inherited that from me. He can hammer out blues tunes with so much touch and nuance that it amazes me. They are taught to hear what they are playing. They are currently starting to move into more formal reading, but that was after years of just playing.

If I had that program at 6 I would have been the next Fred Wesley, Jr. (a loss to the bass world for sure).

 

[HolmeBass]

100% agreement with those emphasizing knowledge of musical theory. Imagine that, instead of having to recall each song from memory, you could simply open a song book - and for almost every song in the book, immediately see the picture of how the song goes. To know the moment you see Dm7b5 in a chart, the next chord will likely be G7b9, and the chord after it Cmin7. And that therefore, your tonal center for those few bars is C minor. And that the Ab is a common tone in all three of those chords, so any line you construct can incorporate that note and thereby be a beautiful strong line within those few bars.

And then imagine you see Fm7b5 in a different song, and can apply all that same knowledge to that phrase by simply moving your hand three frets up the fretboard. With Eb as the tonal center, and B as the common tone.

Why would you want to ‘learn’ one song by having to memorize it, when by knowing theory you can know hundreds of songs just by looking at pages of music?

There is no Ab in Cmin7; it works better if the examples are correct.

 

[coyote1]

There is no Ab in Cmin7; it works better if the examples are correct.

Ohhh, you are correct! It’s the 6 in the natural minor scale and therefore it works, especially as a leading tone to either the 5th or 7th, but it’s not in that particular chord.
Oops... lol I’ll need to be more specific on things like this.

 

[HolmeBass]

Ohhh, you are correct! It’s the 6 in the natural minor scale and therefore it works, but it’s not in that particular chord.
Oops... lol I’ll need to be more specific on things like this.

Yes, Ab is diatonic to the mode/scale I would use across those chords. But a lot can be played across changes like that using only chord tones, so it is worth being specific. It also avoids confusing folks just learning this stuff.