Double Bass K&K Bass Max and Playing Loud

[Jay Corwin]

Not over driving the first gain stage is critical, it's been my experience that's where all weirdness happens.

I have found this to be very true over the years with various preamps. One of the things that I love about the Para Driver is that the output is really hot on it, and easily drives a power amp. I don't have to dime the output, which lets me cut and boost as I please on the EQ without having to worry about drastic volume loss at the back end. The only knob I turn on my head is the volume knob.

 

[brianrost]

both kinda said "get a full circle it doesn't feedback" - I'm skeptical about that one....

Any pickup will feed back if the gain gets high enough...how do you think rock guitarists manage to get controlled feedback using solid body instruments with magnetic pickups?

I've tried many pickups, preamps and EQs until I discovered that my feedback issues were almost 100% tamed by a high pass filter. I use the one built into my AI Coda amp and an fdeck when plugged into anything else. I do keep foam stuffed under the tailpiece and velcro wrapped around the string below the bridge which also helps.

I use a magnetic pickup on my steel-strung bass when stoopid loud is required, but that's very seldom.

 

[Ric Vice]

I spoke briefly with a well respected builder here in the city as well as with a player (who admittedly doesn't play in a sludge trio) but the both kinda said "get a full circle it doesn't feedback" - I'm skeptical about that one....

Well,
The Full Circle has a higher volume threshold before it feeds back, but if you’re in close enough proximity to your speaker cabinet and keep having to rase the volume levels, it increases the potential for feedback. On loud stages the Double Bass pickup and body can “pickup” sound from the guitar or drums and re-amplify those sounds right along with your own. I think of it this way. A pickup will get you closer to the sound of a Double Bass, but as you increase the volume the timbre (tone quality) continues to change subtilely at first and then less so the louder you go. Magnetic pickups are highly feedback resistant, but the timbre sounds like a bass guitar so why not play a bass guitar.
Just my take, but I have a Lakland 55-94 lined fretless for those playing situations. Does it sound like a DB, no it does not but neither does a DB with a magnetic pickup.

 

[sargebaker]

Not to sound too woo-woo, but for me, playing upright is as much about feel as it is about specific timbre. I don't play the same on bass guitar and some songs just "feel" better on upright. Plus sometimes it's about the bow. If a mag pickup gets me in the mix without a headache, I don't think I'm going to be bothered that It's not the "right", or the same timbre of my bass acoustically. Not to mention, when I hear recordings of NHOP playing with a mag pickup, there's still no mistaking it for anything other than an upright.

I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier, but there's a PA in my workshop and one of my shopmates did his studies in sound recording. I'm going to bring my bass in and see if he can give me a crash course in EQing and see how loud we can get the sucker. I know the room changes everything, but it's a start.

 

[Ric Vice]

Not to sound too woo-woo, but for me, playing upright is as much about feel as it is about specific timbre. I don't play the same on bass guitar and some songs just "feel" better on upright. Plus sometimes it's about the bow. If a mag pickup gets me in the mix without a headache, I don't think I'm going to be bothered that It's not the "right", or the same timbre of my bass acoustically. Not to mention, when I hear recordings of NHOP playing with a mag pickup, there's still no mistaking it for anything other than an upright.

I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier, but there's a PA in my workshop and one of my shopmates did his studies in sound recording. I'm going to bring my bass in and see if he can give me a crash course in EQing and see how loud we can get the sucker. I know the room changes everything, but it's a start.

For sure, you can't discount the fell of the instrument or being able to play arco. With that in mind, keeping the volume levels on stage lower and letting the FOH P.A. do the heavy lifting is a good way to go. I have ( definitely in my the past) played
with a 12 piece band at higher volume levels than I'd normally play. In those cases, I run a line out to the P.A. and keep my stage volume lower. It's a more efficient way to play louder, without having to totally re configure your stage setup. That said,
IME once the volume gets to high on stage, my Double Bass starts to become harder to hear, require more and more force to play (because it's difficult to hear the instrument) and sound less and less like the instrument I love to play. Just my take.

 

[sargebaker]

Thanks Ric, just do reiterate though, I'm not on stage (yet? Or may never be?). I'm just trying to sort out the sound in the jam space with a guitar and drummer.

 

[Ric Vice]

Thanks Ric, just do reiterate though, I'm not on stage (yet? Or may never be?). I'm just trying to sort out the sound in the jam space with a guitar and drummer.

O Sorry I missed that somehow, well you could just somehow con them into turning down Good luck on that one. One of the bands I played in had a guitarist who wrote beautiful tunes, but when he started playing the volume just
kept going up and up along with a percussionist who loved the Cajon. I could never wrangle them into a reasonable sound level in our practice space. I think in your situation I'd try some egg crates on the walls, if that's permitted and maybe
even some homemade baffles around the drums and possibly the guitar. Alternatively,
if there's an adjacent bathroom, put the drummer in there.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

…
Alternatively,
if there's an adjacent bathroom, put the drummer in there.

And he doesn‘t even need to bring his drum stool there…
Maybe he gets used playing a cocktail drumkit there, so if he ever gets back with it , the volume might be better then.

 

[sargebaker]

Well we gave it our best college effort but we couldn't seem to get the bass to sit in the mix with the Fishman going into either a bass amp or a mixer. Either feedback or just a really bad sound where I can't hear half the notes the notes. I think I'm ready to give the Krivo a shot.

 

[BobbyT]

There is definitely a volume limit with piezo pickups, so it could be that you’ve exceeded that feedback threshold in your situation.

I’ve used the Bass Max in high volume settings before so here’s my two cents.

I know you mentioned up front that you still had some experimenting to do with foam, etc. I’ve found that a rolled up towel between the tailpiece and the top, as well as muting the string afterlengths with some fabric or rubber goes a long way to extending the usable volume of the stage amp. Also, get the amp off the floor if you can.

You mentioned a preamp—I use the HPF-Pre because it works as a high pass filter too, which should also help reduce feedback at higher volumes as well as matching the impedance of your amp’s input.

If you’ve done all of that and are still getting feedback, I’d say start looking at magnetic pickups.

 

[Ric Vice]

Well we gave it our best college effort but we couldn't seem to get the bass to sit in the mix with the Fishman going into either a bass amp or a mixer. Either feedback or just a really bad sound where I can't hear half the notes the notes. I think I'm ready to give the Krivo a shot.

Well it’s surely one option that can definitely work, I even tried it for a couple years, until the Underwood Pickup was available. It certainly worked well enough

the Underwood was infinitely better. my suggestion is that you borrow one have a luthier install it for you Just my take.

 

[Sam Reese]

Bobby T's post reminded me of all the things I had to do using my BassMax at higher volumes. Yikes! I do not miss that struggle at all. I had foam in the f holes, a nerf football between tail piece and the belly, a bandana on the after lengths, faced the combo amp backwards, faced the combo towards the floor...hmmm, probably other tactics too. Bought a Lifeline and solved most of the problems. Krivo takes it the rest of the way. I have both on my Upton. Used Lifeline last night thru a PA and will be using Krivo tonight thru my Rumble Stage 800. I think for what OP is up to, if you can afford a Krivo, give it a shot. It's cool for artsy stuff for sure.

 

[sargebaker]

Put in the order with Gollihur this morning! Hoping it shows up in time for jam Wednesday

 

[BobbyT]

Bobby T's post reminded me of all the things I had to do using my BassMax at higher volumes. Yikes! I do not miss that struggle at all. I had foam in the f holes, a nerf football between tail piece and the belly, a bandana on the after lengths, faced the combo amp backwards, faced the combo towards the floor...hmmm, probably other tactics too. Bought a Lifeline and solved most of the problems. Krivo takes it the rest of the way. I have both on my Upton. Used Lifeline last night thru a PA and will be using Krivo tonight thru my Rumble Stage 800. I think for what OP is up to, if you can afford a Krivo, give it a shot. It's cool for artsy stuff for sure.

With the Bass Max—and probably any bridge wing piezo—the better the fit, the less “finagling” you need to do… but they can still be very temperamental at high volumes.

Wishing @sargebaker good luck with the Krivo…

 

[Sam Reese]

BassMax sounds best right before it breaks from the pressure of the wing wood. I know. Been there done that. Fortunately, K&K repairs them for a nominal service fee (or the used to).

 

[Ric Vice]

BassMax sounds best right before it breaks from the pressure of the wing wood. I know. Been there done that. Fortunately, K&K repairs them for a nominal service fee (or the used to).

That's a little scary, but it's good to know K&K can fix them. Once a Realist (Copper foil) wears out from pressure it's a throwaway pickup, that's why I stopped using them. I'm trying the Realist Lifeline on my Kolstine Busetto Travel Bass once I get

it back from my luthier. My favored pickup is the Ehrlund EAP it can go pretty loud, but it's not a super high volume pickup.

 

[Stewie]

From what you’ve said so far, I’m pretty sure you will be happy with the Krivo. Did you get advice from Mark, or one of the other guys at Gollihur about strings? I had to change my E string as the helicore I had lacked enough metal to work with the Krivo. You’ll find the sound is close enough for rock n roll

 

[sargebaker]

From what you’ve said so far, I’m pretty sure you will be happy with the Krivo. Did you get advice from Mark, or one of the other guys at Gollihur about strings? I had to change my E string as the helicore I had lacked enough metal to work with the Krivo. You’ll find the sound is close enough for rock n roll

It's currently strung with LaBella 7720L (which I kind of hate, but that's for another thread ) - they're a steel rope core so should be fine

 

[Stewie]

Now all you need is an SVT and a couple of 810s

 

[Sam Reese]

It's currently strung with LaBella 7720L (which I kind of hate, but that's for another thread ) - they're a steel rope core so should be fine

The LaBella 7710 strings DO NOT work with Krivo. I told Gollihur that the info was wrong on the website, but don't know if he fixed it.