Double Bass K&K Bass Max and Playing Loud

[sargebaker]

Hi gang,

I'm having trouble dialing in a sound in jam setting with my upright and K&K (which I believe to be installed correctly and would like the remove that from the equation). I read through the stickied thread on killing feedback and I have some experimenting to do with stuffing foam everywhere (or buying a parametric EQ?!)

Our setting is a trio with guitar and a drummer playing a mixture of improv-jammy-noise stuff and kinda sludgy doomy stuff. I'm running my bass through a Fishman Platinum Stage into the PA (monitors on stands several feet up). I can get to the point where I can keep up with the drum and guitar level for quieter passages (or louder w/ bow) but that little extra gain to be heard pizz during louder passages and I'm either getting pretty serious feedback or a really unbalanced/unusable sound.

I'm wondering if maybe the K&K is just not the right pickup for this setup? As far as I know, Trevor Dunn uses the Underwood pickup, and my guitarist saw him live with The Melvins, playing WAYY louder than we do - so there's a way to get there. I am also flirting with the idea of a mag...

The Parametric EQ thing came back up repeatedly in the sticky thread - Sweetwater calls the Fishman parametric... but I don't think it is? Would a parametric be a/the solution?

 

[Stewie]

Don’t know how fussy you are about tone. I use a Krivo magnetic pickup on my Thompson ply. With one 15 on the floor I can get loud, with two SVT 15Es I could get stooopid loud. The single 15 on the floor was barking right into the back of the bass. If you stand a bit to the side and/or put your cab on a chair, you can get loud enough to need earplugs.
The pickup through a normal bass amp is pretty good, through the PA, it ain’t too bad at all

 

[Ric Vice]

With any piezo pickup their is a "point of no return" past which you will start to feed back. Most bridge wing pickups will squeal with a high frequency sooner than they will boom from to much low end.
Other than the fact that's a dual element (which many players remove from one side or the other, the K.K. and Underwood do largely the same thing. A notch filter will tame the squeals, while a low cut
filter will tame the boom. There is a very reasonable box built by Francis Deck (of these parts on TB) the HPF Buffer Preamp that's much cheaper than the Fishman if you're just having issues with
boom, If you have problems with both squeal and boom then something like the Fishman Platinum Pro is what you're looking for.

Take a look at the dial on the center far left, that's a low cut boomer tamer, the dial lower and to the right is a notch filter
for gettin' rid of squeal.

The Headway EDB2 H.E. is around the same price and has a great feature set that includes a variable notch filter and a 3 position Low Cut Switch. Just my take. I'm not a fan of Magnetic Pickups on Double Bass. I had one and found it to be overly bright and to much like a Bass Guitar, so for me personally, if I want that sound at high volumes I bring the Lakland 55/94 Lined Fretless. Just my preferences

 

[Jeff Kissell]

My take is that “stage” volume has a limit for upright bass. If you think of the sonic space as finite, the more that space is filled with drums and guitar the less likely you’ll be able to discern any thing that resembles bass. It more about creating frequency room for what your bass is producing. Most likely you are plenty loud enough but you can’t hear it because the “upright bassness” is being obliterated by the other instruments. Amp and speaker placement is a huge part of the equation for fighting feedback but a real and honest conversation with band mates about what you all want to hear and create is probably more important.
FWIW, you will never win an arms race with drums or electric guitar.

 

[Ric Vice]

My take is that “stage” volume has a limit for upright bass. If you think of the sonic space as finite, the more that space is filled with drums and guitar the less likely you’ll be able to discern any thing that resembles bass. It more about creating frequency room for what your bass is producing. Most likely you are plenty loud enough but you can’t hear it because the “upright bassness” is being obliterated by the other instruments. Amp and speaker placement is a huge part of the equation for fighting feedback but a real and honest conversation with band mates about what you all want to hear and create is probably more important. FWIW, you will never win an arms race with drums or electric guitar.

Great advice, (pun intended)

I listened and watched a phenomenal pianist Lawrence Fields an his trio play a rather difficult hall, here in St. Louis. I provided the bass with my Grace Felix and MAS 1/8. The bassist and I were in a hurry (traffic issues caused me to arrive after their
sound check had already been going for 20 minutes. So we put the speaker and preamp on the floor, behind and slightly to the left of the bassist closer to the drum kit. I have a stand mount on that particular MAS 1/8 and had fully intended to use
it because of the difficulty with low end rumble in that room. (Holmes Lounge in Ridley Hall) I offered to raise it up, but by that time the bassist was comfortable with the positioning and sound of the amp in that space, so as the old adage states
"if it ain't broke, don't fixit" The percussionist had great pop, dynamic sensitivity, accuracy, and musicality, so for the most part balance was fine, but when the energy level of the band reached out, the bass got buried. If the cabinet had been up and out from behind
the bassist, I think we could improved the balance significantly. Just my take, The Low Cut filter on the Grace was approaching between 40/50 hz to tighten up the low end. So bass rule no. 1 don't stand in front of the speaker cabinet. Rule #2 raise the cabinet reasonably
if needed for clarity and a little bass reduction, Rule #3 use the Low Cut filter judiciously to filter da boom in da room.

 

[Jay Corwin]

You might also want to consider an onstage amp so you can control more variables . If all of that bass is coming back at you through the monitors as your only means to hear yourself, trust me - you are doomed to feedback. On amp plus DI gigs I would usually ask the sound guy to start with no bass in my monitors, and try to carry the day with my amp for stage volume. FOH could do whatever they wanted with my DI signal. I was not playing as loud as it sounds like you need though.

The magnetic pickup might solve your problems too as previously stated.

 

[sargebaker]

I'm strongly considering a mag pickup as I'm really looking for a "path of least resistance" solution. I'm not much of a knob turner and there seems to be a learning curve with EQing and mixing that I'm struggling with. Also the next step up in preamp seems to be in the $350+ ballpark and I'm not sure I want to spend that on more gear - especially if the problem is at the pickup level.

For now, I'm not even playing on stage, just jamming in a studio space. We're not as loud as MMW or Zorn ensembles or plenty of other groups... Definitely not as loud as The Melvins, so I'm lead to believe I should be able to get this working.

I also feel like I *should* be able to get a sound with my Fishman Platinum Stage preamp/DI. I had the low cut toggling between 80 and 160 last night, the knobs mostly flat, toggled the phase switch a few times. Am I just missing a parameter?

 

[Stewie]

Since I bought the Krivo, I only use my FDeck HPF to eliminate muddiness, never to fight feedback, the FDeck also has a phase switch that helps some with piezos

 

[Stewie]

I use a wireless, which doesn’t like the HPF between it and the bass, but if you use a cable, you can hang the FDeck behind your tailpiece with a couple of elastics. This will give you a handy volume control

Any time you have to be really loud, chances are no one out front will notice that your “tone” is compromised. Lee Rocker of the Stray Cats used a mag pickup on stage. Some strings won’t work with the Krivo I use Daddario helicore orchestrals with a Jargar E. I’m happy with my tone. Call Gollihur Music for help with string selection

 

[Sam Reese]

I'm strongly considering a mag pickup as I'm really looking for a "path of least resistance" solution.

The Krivo is a path of least resistance. It pairs well with Spiros. It does not work with guts or synthetics. I get loud enough to handle electric guitars and drums, and beyond. One thing I don't like is when a guitarist has too much low end in their sound. It smacks of a sonic fly zone violation.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

The confined sonic space is whatever it is. There is only so much information available in that space. You are correct in that you should be able to get something to work with what you have. Don’t be afraid to really turn any or all of the knobs on your pre. Understanding what it does allows you to problem solve. Others might disagree but I’ve almost never run anything flat with reasonably loud amplification. IMHO that is a useless myth in your situation.

 

[Sam Reese]

I agree. Twist and tweedle those EQ settings. I quite often can drop the treble all the way down and it doesn't particularly hurt the sound at all.

 

[sargebaker]

I spoke briefly with a well respected builder here in the city as well as with a player (who admittedly doesn't play in a sludge trio) but the both kinda said "get a full circle it doesn't feedback" - I'm skeptical about that one....

 

[Jeff Kissell]

I have a friend who uses a Bassmax into a 410 cab with a carved bass. That band’s stage volume is definitely up there.
I had the best luck with an Underwood into a 112 up on a speaker stand.

 

[Ric Vice]

I have a friend who uses a Bassmax into a 410 cab with a carved bass. That band’s stage volume is definitely up there.
I had the best luck with an Underwood into a 112 up on a speaker stand.

Same here, different speakers and pickup. In my case it's a Ehrlund EAP, powered MAS 1/8 on a small speaker stand. Elevation and the low cut filter are my best buds. Just my take of course.
The Underwood's design was always less prone to feedback for some reason than the Fishman BP/100 (it also sucks tonally and dampens the bridge) the Upton was decent at that too, just to
bass heavy on my instrument. I've only played through other folks basses with the Bassmax. It's just not my "cup of tea" tonally. I could live with the Underwood if I had to.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

FWIW, I can get pretty damn loud with a copper Realist currently.

 

[Fretless55]

FWIW, I can get pretty damn loud with a copper Realist currently.

True dat, but I find the HPF essential.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

High feedback or low feedback? For the latter, try a tennis ball jammed under the tailpiece.

 

[Ric Vice]

FWIW, I can get pretty damn loud with a copper Realist currently.

I would venture that's the Audiokinesis TC/112 doing it's assignment admirably. It's transition, from low to hign notes and back again

are so smooth and accurate, even at really loud volumes. As I recall (cause I have not used a Realist for quite some time) the Realist Copper Foil

starts to sound weird and mid forward when you have to go louder. Just my take however, it's been a good while since I played the Thunderchild.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

I really try to not push my own volume past where it sounds good and let the PA/FOH do all the heavy lifting. I've been lucky enough to play with people who understand the value of lower stage volume but I will have "the conversation" if needed. If you don't have reinforcement, then you have to get more creative to maintain a decent tone at big volumes. Not over driving the first gain stage is critical, it's been my experience that's where all weirdness happens. It is very doable but it's definitely not a MBOL situation.